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The Dangers of Patching

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I just wanted to create a thread to gather all the thoughts and have a place to show NRS that more caution should be taken with changing characters with variations. I started playing Master of Storms Raiden a little while ago. He does all the basic Raiden things and sets traps. The traps are pain to get going. Such a pain that sometimes I'll go a round without touching them because it's just easier to use his basic things. Raiden recently got a nerf to f1 which i'm sure is because of the way Thunder God Raiden's f12 string works. The thing is that f12 was specifically a TG Raiden string. But instead of changing how the second part of that string works NRS nerfed the normal that was available to all variations. So now the troublesome variation (Thunder God) still has all the chip, cancels, and overall usefulness it always had but now MoS and Displacer get hindered as collateral damage. I'm not saying nerf TG Raiden's damage or other stuff. But when a problem is variation specific please make changes specific to that variation instead of character wide changes that affect all aspects unless it absolutely necessary. On that note is it possible for NRS to give different variations different frames on the same normals because of the way the variation specific moves are interacting with it?
 

Jb879212

40 Percent Punish
I hear the same thing happened to EB. Your criticism of this recent patch is correct but I'm not worried because I see that there are more comprehensive patches to come and I have faith for the end result. Nonetheless, nothing left to do now but let it rock but to answer your question, I do believe they can fix variation specific normals but it would take more time than to just switch from mid to high.
 

BloodyNights

"My kunai will find it's mark."
But when a problem is variation specific please make changes specific to that variation instead of character wide changes that affect all aspects unless it absolutely necessary.
I do agree that when altering characters they should target a specific variation, and not hurt the entire character as a whole. But just my two cents, I don't think any character should have a 6 frame mid like Raiden had. Most characters fastest attacks are highs, and I'm not sure if even one of them has a 6 frame high. Just seems a bit overboard.

But I certainly understand what you are saying, if they nerfed Scorpion's stuff, and it carried over into Ninjitsu that would just be silly, and lessens the overall credibility of variations in my opinion.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Nonetheless, nothing left to do now but let it rock but to answer your question, I do believe they can fix variation specific normals but it would take more time than to just switch from mid to high.
In that last part i was asking if they can change that are available to all variations for example Raiden's f1 but only change the frames for TG. So if I picked MoS it still is a 6 frame mid.

But just my two cents, I don't think any character should have a 6 frame mid like Raiden had. Most characters fastest attacks are highs, and I'm not sure if even one of them has a 6 frame high. Just seems a bit overboard.

But I certainly understand what you are saying, if they nerfed Scorpion's stuff, and it carried over into Ninjitsu that would just be silly, and lessens the overall credibility of variations in my opinion.
I feel that move wasn't that bad for the other 2 variations. Even though it was mid it had a pretty high hitbox that it could be low profiled in some cases. And the range wasn't that great on it that you felt you couldnt stick out your own normals. If it was a punish with meter than it's damaging otherwise it would just lead to a hard knockdown. In other cases if he does the full string in neutral its punishable. I don't know the advantage frames of the f1 by itself though.
 

Ashenar

Just a slightly above average player.....
I just wanted to create a thread to gather all the thoughts and have a place to show NRS that more caution should be taken with changing characters with variations. I started playing Master of Storms Raiden a little while ago. He does all the basic Raiden things and sets traps. The traps are pain to get going. Such a pain that sometimes I'll go a round without touching them because it's just easier to use his basic things. Raiden recently got a nerf to f1 which i'm sure is because of the way Thunder God Raiden's f12 string works. The thing is that f12 was specifically a TG Raiden string. But instead of changing how the second part of that string works NRS nerfed the normal that was available to all variations. So now the troublesome variation (Thunder God) still has all the chip, cancels, and overall usefulness it always had but now MoS and Displacer get hindered as collateral damage. I'm not saying nerf TG Raiden's damage or other stuff. But when a problem is variation specific please make changes specific to that variation instead of character wide changes that affect all aspects unless it absolutely necessary. On that note is it possible for NRS to give different variations different frames on the same normals because of the way the variation specific moves are interacting with it?
They should have taken dizzy's advice and made f12 more negative on block -5 or 6 would have been fine and maybe more push back so you could return a d4.
 

Bryck Walle

Counting the Days for the JCVD Johnny Costume!
But I am saying nerf TG raiden's damage and other stuff.

His damage is fine. Making F1 a high is a nice touch on the topic. He's still good, he just can't lock you down as hard anymore.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
It makes no sense for patching this close to evo when its one month away. I dont get it...
I dont think there was anything major except for Kotal and Kenshi actually improving in trouble areas. Kenshi became way more useable and slight issues with Kotal's non war god variations became better but overall no one should be losing in evo to this patch. Matchup knowledge still works just fine.