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MY PREDICTIONS FOR THE NEXT BALANCE PATCH - POST YOURS

CJKRattlehead

Two men enter, one man leaves!
I'll keep going back to the Jason example with the tick throw, it is pretty difficult at least for me to get the OS but but rewarding to about 10-15 %.

It gives you more things to master and more things to keep in mind ...

I do not agree with the ones that are so good that they are damn near in inescapable though
difficulty is not how you balance a game
 

SEV

Noob
I understand your concern with shocker jailing after b2. Let's not forget that the b2 OS shouldn't be in the game. Why would we make shocker unsafe when we should remove the OS? I still don't hit the OS every time and before I knew it existed I would throw out b2~shocker if I had the life lead and wanted to play safe. I do it now sometimes when the pressure is on. Fix the OS. Nerf his meter build. Don't ruin shocker.
From my understanding this isn't the option select that most people are talking about. I could be wrong but most people are talking about the OS that will cancel a special input if you input directional inputs on block. This is a cancel from move that consists of more than one hit from one button. Some characters rely on this type of input mechanic: I believe Cassie's D+F1 low can be canceled into American Way to make it safe if I'm remembering properly from a Brady stream(don't actually play Cassie), Takeda's F1 2+4 to be able to make it safe, and Kung Jin doesn't rely on it but has a mix up off of his armor breaking string; are all these not meant to be patched out as well? Somehow I don't think they will, and if they are it will probably be a case by case basis.
Block ex shocker and full punish. It's really that easy. Raiden uses a bar of meter and gets full combo'd. And you can already njp his ex-shocker. People do it to me constantly. Who are you playing against? Ex vb is 0 on block by the way. Not sure where you're getting that it's advantage on block. And it'ss not intended as solely an anti air. Vb is. Ex vb hits as a high, unlike regular vb which is a clear indicator of intent. Ex vb being 0 in block isn't that big of a deal. It leads to no damage mid screen but gives you a corner carry, sure. Corner carry for a bar of meter? Ok. In the corner it can give a standing reset on hit. It's a high and costs a bar of meter. I fail to see how it's broken and needs nerfs. You say raiden is never short on meter but if you're throwing out as many ex shockers and ex vb to use these tools enough to be considered OP enough to require nerfs, I'm not sure how you ever have meter. I say nerf raiden's meter build on the charge strings a bit.
You clearly don't understand my post. The nerf to Shocker would only affect his ability to anti-air when people neutral jump to avoid and punish advancing pressure, but get punished anyways because it says active forever and has an insane vertical hit box too. I've never said it was impossible to NJP punish, but I don't think I'd believe you if you claim that you've never gotten anti-airs from that move when you probably should've been punished.

I don't understand why you keep saying just block Shocker; nerfing active frames shouldn't have any effect on blocking or punishing(true you might be able to punish it easier since you can stand quicker but be real, against anyone good you're getting punished regardless). You keep bringing it up when it has nothing to do with anything that I've said, or proposed.

And I know Vicinity Burst isn't plus but it being neutral is an issue because Raiden can follow up with a 6 frame mid, and not all characters even have a 6 frame move. In closing situations if I have my opponent cornered and I'm sitting on meter, every time I'm negative I have no reason not to use it. If it hits I'll win, if they block it, it's neutral so I can either pressure with my 6 frame F1 which you can't beat out without armor, if they low profile poke I'll absorb and it and can still hit sometimes as they're recovering from their poke and win, and if I have more meter I can just Vicinity Burst again for more chip and to go back into the same situation. But it hits high, so they can just duck it right? Because that's a good idea: ducking directly in front of Raiden without holding block.
Your post is called reasonable nerfs. I'm saying some of them are unreasonable. I've mained raiden since day 1 and of course I know he's good. I certainly don't think that if he is number 1, it's not by a long shot by any means. Raiden can still be number 1 without being absolutely absurd. I don't know who you're playing against but I get full combo'd for doing ex shocker quite a bit. People i play against also know that ex vb is a high And i get whiff punished for it, or at best they get pressure. And I never have enough meter to be throwing out ex vb after every block string. Yeah all of these things would be OP if you didn't block.
Then tell me why these are unreasonable. How are these actually going to ruin anything? The only reason you have said so far relates to Electrocute and your point is, "why not cancel on block," so that you can build next to no bar and be less negative. But Raiden is already great at building meter, and again, realisitcally: when do you ever do it? I was serious when I asked; what strings do you actually cancel into it from on block? It doesn't jail from B33 so you can't make that safe unless you're fighting someone that doesn't know the match up, no reason to do it from any F2 string since you're plus, 34 is less negative... seriously let me know.

You haven't addressed any of the points that I made about why Vicinity Burst is so good, you've just said that it hits high and costs meter which is beside the point; it's risk/reward is absurdly in Raiden's favor and just because it doesn't lead to a lot of damage doesn't mean it isn't over powered. Why should Raiden be at such an advantageous position with no real risk? State a case rather than taking a paragraph to just say no, in so many words.
 
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qspec

Noob
I'll keep going back to the Jason example with the tick throw, it is pretty difficult at least for me to get the OS but but rewarding to about 10-15 %.

It gives you more things to master and more things to keep in mind ...

I do not agree with the ones that are so good that they are damn near in inescapable throw
But that to me is again the opposite of interesting. Instead of making a damn good read and doing an actual tick throw, you rely on a fundamentally broken mechanic to do that for you. Now interesting is you conditioning me to block low, so when you go for your tick through... voila. You get it. Now that's good fundamentals and an interesting fighter.

It hasn't given you anything more to master except an extra input. And in a sense has given you less to master (like the aforementioned conditioning example). And it actually is less to keep in mind as you are effectively covering two options with one input.

Like I said above, I guess I don't think adding mechanical difficulty (ie training time and training time only) to dumb down FG fundamentals and game sense is worth it.
 
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not a capcom player by any means but OP is OP regardless of how hard. If you use difficulty as a way to balance the game you get Kabal.
A better example would be el Fuetres run stop.... It is an infinite but near impossible to get till death ... We rarely ever see El Fuertes in tournaments let ..
alone winning them

Kabals Run stop isnt that hard.......Nor is his iagb
 
But that to me is again the opposite of interesting. Instead of making a damn good read and doing an actual tick throw, you rely on a fundamentally broken mechanic to do that for you. Now interesting is you conditioning me to block low, so when you go for your tick through... voila. You get it. Now that's good fundamentals and an interesting fighter.

It hasn't given you anything more to master except an extra input. And in a sense has given you less to master (like the aforementioned conditioning example). And it actually is less to keep in mind as you are effectively covering two options with one input.

Like I said above, I guess I don't think adding mechanical difficulty (ie training time and training time only) to dumb down FG fundamentals and game sense is worth it.
The thing about this is you can still get out of the tick throw, the OS doesn't mean you get caught, it just means if i get the hit i have the chance to add on some more damage. I still have to mix up the Choke or clothes line to stop you from jumping or ducking the throw ........

Edit:
This OS i am talking about imo does not down down fundamentals either... you still have to react to the hit to confirm your combo.. where as before you have to guess if you would hit or not... And i would not call guessing a real fundamental in fighting games.. Im saying guessing not reads
 
True but you can't deny he was the hardest character in MK9 to play to his fullest potential (at least mechanically)
He was ...

That game was pretty broken from many sides though..

No trading of hits so a random person gets hit......"reset" combos by cyrax and smoke... Cheap ass zoning by Kabal and Kenshi......
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
From my understanding this isn't the option select that most people are talking about. I could be wrong but most people are talking about the OS that will cancel a special input if you input directional inputs on block. This is a cancel from move that consists of more than one hit from one button. Some characters rely on this type of input mechanic: I believe Cassie's D+F1 low can be canceled into American Way to make it safe if I'm remembering properly from a Brady stream(don't actually play Cassie), Takeda's F1 2+4 to be able to make it safe, and Kung Jin doesn't rely on it but has a mix up off of his armor breaking string; are all these not meant to be patched out as well? Somehow I don't think they will, and if they are it will probably be a case by case basis.

You clearly don't understand my post. The nerf to Shocker would only affect his ability to anti-air when people neutral jump to avoid and punish advancing pressure, but get punished anyways because it says active forever and has an insane vertical hit box too. I've never said it was impossible to NJP punish, but I don't think I'd believe you if you claim that you've never gotten anti-airs from that move when you probably should've been punished.

I don't understand why you keep saying just block Shocker; nerfing active frames shouldn't have any effect on blocking or punishing(true you might be able to punish it easier since you can stand quicker but be real, against anyone good you're getting punished regardless). You keep bringing it up when it has nothing to do with anything that I've said, or proposed.

And I know Vicinity Burst isn't plus but it being neutral is an issue because Raiden can follow up with a 6 frame mid, and not all characters even have a 6 frame move. In closing situations if I have my opponent cornered and I'm sitting on meter, every time I'm negative I have no reason not to use it. If it hits I'll win, if they block it, it's neutral so I can either pressure with my 6 frame F1 which you can't beat out without armor, if they low profile poke I'll absorb and it and can still hit sometimes as they're recovering from their poke and win, and if I have more meter I can just Vicinity Burst again for more chip and to go back into the same situation. But it hits high, so they can just duck it right? Because that's a good idea: ducking directly in front of Raiden without holding block.

Then tell me why these are unreasonable. How are these actually going to ruin anything? The only reason you have said so far relates to Electrocute and your point is, "why not cancel on block," so that you can build next to no bar and be less negative. But Raiden is already great at building meter, and again, realisitcally: when do you ever do it? I was serious when I asked; what strings do you actually cancel into it from on block? It doesn't jail from B33 so you can't make that safe unless you're fighting someone that doesn't know the match up, no reason to do it from any F2 string since you're plus, 34 is less negative... seriously let me know.

You haven't addressed any of the points that I made about why Vicinity Burst is so good, you've just said that it hits high and costs meter which is beside the point; it's risk/reward is absurdly in Raiden's favor and just because it doesn't lead to a lot of damage doesn't mean it isn't over powered. Why should Raiden be at such an advantageous position with no real risk? State a case rather than taking a paragraph to just say no, in so many words.
The b2 OS is a timing thing. If you time the cancel into shocker JUST RIGHT, shocker comes out on block but not on hit. The OSs brady is talking about are legitimate OSs that involve just canceling into something to cover 2 options. b2 OS is not a regular on hit/on block OS. It's an exploit of the way this game handles canceling moves on block vs on hit and technically shouldn't be possible. That's why I say get rid of this type of OS.

You can cancel all of your charge strings into shocker on block. For instance f12b2, f22+4, b32, etc. I don't use b33 ever. Haven't found a use for it yet in thunder god when I have b32.

The point of me saying ex vb is a high, 0 on block, and costs a bar of meter is basically me saying there is literally no reason to touch that move. You're suggesting changing most of his tools here. Ex vb is a check And I don't think it's overpowered in the slightest. You blow it up on a read. If there's no reason not to do it then they know you're going to do it, in which case they duck and full punish. Even if raiden follows up with f12b2, then you just block and raiden used a bar that didn't do much of anything.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Quan Chi:

ex rune is +8 on block (down from +14)

Prevents a 50/50 after successfully blocking another 50/50 by creating a gap to armour through or backdash. Quan can still read this and punish. His zoning with rune can already be backdashed so this isn't really a nerf to that.
 

SEV

Noob
The b2 OS is a timing thing. If you time the cancel into shocker JUST RIGHT, shocker comes out on block but not on hit. The OSs brady is talking about are legitimate OSs that involve just canceling into something to cover 2 options. b2 OS is not a regular on hit/on block OS. It's an exploit of the way this game handles canceling moves on block vs on hit and technically shouldn't be possible. That's why I say get rid of this type of OS.

You can cancel all of your charge strings into shocker on block. For instance f12b2, f22+4, b32, etc. I don't use b33 ever. Haven't found a use for it yet in thunder god when I have b32.

The point of me saying ex vb is a high, 0 on block, and costs a bar of meter is basically me saying there is literally no reason to touch that move. You're suggesting changing most of his tools here. Ex vb is a check And I don't think it's overpowered in the slightest. You blow it up on a read. If there's no reason not to do it then they know you're going to do it, in which case they duck and full punish. Even if raiden follows up with f12b2, then you just block and raiden used a bar that didn't do much of anything.
I understand the OS, but I was asking if there was a way to affect this option select without having to remove canceling from all buttons that act in that way. That's why I'm not discussing the OS in regards to balance because it relates to universal mechanics. I'm simply sticking to character balance, and as of now the OS is there, and these are the necessary changes to make Raiden's B2 unsafe without changing universal mechanics.

Raiden's plus 2 on block from F2 so if he's in range for it to be blocked I think it's a bad call to go into F2 2+4 when you can use the frame trap for F1 or use the fear of F1 to go for a 50/50. You can't cancel into Electrocute safely from lightning stings, it's punishable by an armored reversals. Sure you can safely if they don't have meter but I think it's a weak argument. And look at it this way, right now you're at -13 after a lightning string and safe, if Electrocute was changed to -14, you'd still probably be safe canceling into Electrocute on block since you're already spaced far, and you'd be adding the push back from Electrocute as well. So the only thing this would change is your ability to make yourself safer than you already would be, in select situations, but would fix the entire issue regarding the option select. And even if it wasn't safe, what it fixes is much more important than what Raiden loses.

And the points you're still making regarding Vicinity Burst are weak as well in my opinion. Me saying I have no reason not to do it, doesn't mean that I do it every time I can. It's the fact that you need to respect my option to do so, and the fact that it covers so many of your options that it forces to either block or duck without blocking punish. Raiden will almost always have meter if he didn't just breaker, so you constantly have to make the decision of whether or not you will respect Raiden's option to do so. You say you can blow it up on read, but who is really going to risk that read. As people understand the match up, Raidens will have to stop using Shocker and Vicinity Bursts as their go to armor options since they hit high and people can duck and punish. Raidens will start using Thunder Strike(DB3+Block), which will force people to respect the mid, and then you can sneak in Vicinity Burst. So when making that read, you need to risk Raiden going for a 50/50, armor, 6 frame advancing F1...;it's just so much safer to hold block. And if they do block, it's the fear of the 6 frame move that gives Raiden so many options to exploit that is a unbalanced.

Raiden already takes you to the corner from anywhere on the screen, he shouldn't be able to just spend a bar to force you into taking a 50/50 that leads into a restand situation where you'll be forced to deal with more 50/50s until you guess right or die. I think the opponent should have an option other than armoring out before being forced to deal with Raidens corner game since he takes you there that easily and I really don't think it makes for fun, or good gameplay either.
 
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Solid

The Longbow Hunter.
Why would anyone in the competitive scene ask to nerf their main chicken? As a competitor I use all the tools available to me to give myself the best chance of winning. Why would I want to limit my chances of winning? I don't get this thread. Furthermore balancing the game is up to developers and designers. Not up to the players. This is just another "cry for nerf" thread in disguise. Just play the game and try to enjoy it. Hold up on the nerf talk atleast after the Predator comes around please.
 

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
Alucard didn't place via pressure, he placed due to a mixup of great footsies and whiff punishing combined with people not having a single clue when it came to blocking or armouring through his punishable cancels.

Watch his matches and notice that when people started blocking B14 overhead sword he started doing D4 low sword, B14 low sword etc.
same way takeda made top 8, but if i say anything i'll be blown up according to TYM rules. it is incredible what MU knowledge would can do to a character, the fact that not a single person knew how to blow up takeda f12 2+4 string was literally the funniest thing all weekend. but i digress let me go back into the shadows before people say takeda is fine because he made top 8.
 

Drew Grimey

Wired players in CA, add me on PSN @ DrewGrimey
I think OS should stay it makes the game more interesting .. But they should make Raidens B2 uncancelable .
Translation: Keep OSs for the characters that I play, but remove them for the ones that I lose to.

Sorry man, that's not how it works. Can't have your cake and eat it too
 
Translation: Keep OSs for the characters that I play, but remove them for the ones that I lose to.

Sorry man, that's not how it works. Can't have your cake and eat it too
Not really for characters i play.. My mains are Jacqui, Shinnok and Kung in that order...

I wouldnt play Jason seriously even with that OS, he is lacking too much.

Im saying from what i have been able to test OSs aren't broken in most areas... Maybe im wrong and i have to see some more ... Only one that i see that NEEDS to go is Raiden, maybe i need to see more......
 
Why would anyone in the competitive scene ask to nerf their main chicken? As a competitor I use all the tools available to me to give myself the best chance of winning. Why would I want to limit my chances of winning? I don't get this thread. Furthermore balancing the game is up to developers and designers. Not up to the players. This is just another "cry for nerf" thread in disguise. Just play the game and try to enjoy it. Hold up on the nerf talk atleast after the Predator comes around please.
Because not everyone wishes to win with OP stuff
 
Jax:
-remove the atrocious amount of gaps in his strings: 2gap3gap2, b3-gap-d2, b3-gap-4 ,12-gap-b4 ,d1-gap-2

-fix b34 ~ OH dash punch whiffing on Goro in the corner.

-His MB OH Dash punch having a consistent launching arch ,instead of the guessing if run cancel f21 will hit or not and beeing forced just be doing 29% instead cuz He ain't Reptile. This is even worse on female characters.

-B2 beeing special cancelable on block and f2 not whiffing on crouching females

- Fix his d12 not counting as a string

- Give Wrestler jax a new brutality or Make the last hit of the quad slam easier cuz right now u must have a Pad to do this shit.

Quan cheese:
-Give Sorcerer and Summoner a Wakeup goddamit sure he has strong offense in summoner but that isn't a reason to be coin fliping once u get knocked down.Theres no excuse why sorcerer has do deal with this shit neither.

-Reduce the Startup of Spells in sorcerer

-Fix Portal stab whiffing point blank


Kotal kahn:
-b122 , b13 safe on block

-GIve Blood god a armor move Or/and make his parry have a hitstun

-Reduce the recovery of the Sun ray .

-REMOVE THE GAPS BTW EVERY SWORD CANCEL in War GOd ,apart from df2 they are already hella negative and punishable.

-Reduce the Startup frames of MB sun Disc just like In War god.

-Reduce the active frames of the vampiric Totem ,nobody can turtle 7 seconds straight without beeing hit in a game full of 50/50s.

-Blood offering only affecting hits and not blocked hits, why would i spend 10% of my health to do some extra chip damage?


Universally: Give everyone a good Poke
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
I understand the OS, but I was asking if there was a way to affect this option select without having to remove canceling from all buttons that act in that way. That's why I'm not discussing the OS in regards to balance because it relates to universal mechanics. I'm simply sticking to character balance, and as of now the OS is there, and these are the necessary changes to make Raiden's B2 unsafe without changing universal mechanics.

Raiden's plus 2 on block from F2 so if he's in range for it to be blocked I think it's a bad call to go into F2 2+4 when you can use the frame trap for F1 or use the fear of F1 to go for a 50/50. You can't cancel into Electrocute safely from lightning stings, it's punishable by an armored reversals. Sure you can safely if they don't have meter but I think it's a weak argument. And look at it this way, right now you're at -13 after a lightning string and safe, if Electrocute was changed to -14, you'd still probably be safe canceling into Electrocute on block since you're already spaced far, and you'd be adding the push back from Electrocute as well. So the only thing this would change is your ability to make yourself safer than you already would be, in select situations, but would fix the entire issue regarding the option select. And even if it wasn't safe, what it fixes is much more important than what Raiden loses.

And the points you're still making regarding Vicinity Burst are weak as well in my opinion. Me saying I have no reason not to do it, doesn't mean that I do it every time I can. It's the fact that you need to respect my option to do so, and the fact that it covers so many of your options that it forces to either block or duck without blocking punish. Raiden will almost always have meter if he didn't just breaker, so you constantly have to make the decision of whether or not you will respect Raiden's option to do so. You say you can blow it up on read, but who is really going to risk that read. As people understand the match up, Raidens will have to stop using Shocker and Vicinity Bursts as their go to armor options since they hit high and people can duck and punish. Raidens will start using Thunder Strike(DB3+Block), which will force people to respect the mid, and then you can sneak in Vicinity Burst. So when making that read, you need to risk Raiden going for a 50/50, armor, 6 frame advancing F1...;it's just so much safer to hold block. And if they do block, it's the fear of the 6 frame move that gives Raiden so many options to exploit that is a unbalanced.

Raiden already takes you to the corner from anywhere on the screen, he shouldn't be able to just spend a bar to force you into taking a 50/50 that leads into a restand situation where you'll be forced to deal with more 50/50s until you guess right or die. I think the opponent should have an option other than armoring out before being forced to deal with Raidens corner game since he takes you there that easily and I really don't think it makes for fun, or good gameplay either.
So you want to make a move that does like 8 or 9 damage on hit punishable on block, when it's already -7 giving the opponent a free poke or at least free pressure, because the game is F'ed up and has an unintended OS in it? I don't think that's a good reason to make shocker negative on block. Sure that would make the OS less relevant but you'd literally be blowing a move into the ground. It's not like shocker launches or anything. You don't even end combos with it because it's not that good.

Regarding ex vb... that's called the neutral game. If you don't do it it's their turn. If you do it, it's either players' turn. It doesn't need to be changed. You just said people will need to start using ex-rising thunder instead of ex-shocker and ex-vb. Then you said once they start respecting that you can go for ex-vb. How much meter do you think Raiden really gets? You keep saying Raiden is never short on meter. It's simply not true. If you're putting yourself in THAT many negative situations (holding out your charge strings multiple times to build meter), there's no reason they shouldn't have opportunities to blow you up. Not to mention that if you want to do combos that do more than 20%, you need to use ex-shocker in your combos. After ex-vb is blocked, they can also armor through your next f1. Ex-vb doesn't always leave you in range for a f1 giving them an opportunity to whiff punish, especially if you're just throwing it out at the end of a charged string which already gives good push back. You keep saying there's no reason not to throw it out. If you don't want to get blown up or don't have the meter to blow simply to put yourself at 0... you probably don't want to just be throwing out ex-vb.

Raiden is fine. Either give all characters an 8 frame or less poke, or make f12 -5 on block. Nerf his meter build (which would fix all of your "raiden is never short on meter" claims). We don't need to go changing the properties of all of his special moves. That's called an over reaction.
 
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Kotal Kahn:

Sun/God Ray: Recovery reduced

Parry: Now absorbs air attacks. Start up time reduced to 5f (down from 8f) Active frames increased.

Ex Parry: Can now absorb Projectiles. Active frames increased.

Parry and Ex Parry: Damage buff duration increased from 3 secs to 6 seconds.

Blood Totem: Fixed, it now properly drains meter upon connected attacks. It no longer vanishes when Kotal Kahn takes damage.

Sun/Moon Choke: Damage increased for level 1, 2 and 3. Reduced recovery time.

Soul Scourge: Healing increased per level.

Blood God Totems: Duration increased from 6 secs ------> 10secs. In addition, Kotal Kahn can now summon another totem while one is still active. However the previous active totem will vanish and all benefits are lost.

Obsidian Totem: Now gives armor in addition to decreasing incoming damage.

Anti Air Takedown: Now has priority over Neutral and forward jumping attacks.
No.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
How about giving all characters a move that can beat out a 9 frame window? like idk... an 7 frame or less poke?

As... that's the frames you have to counterpoke after a blocked F12 if it's -3 on block and F12 is 6 frames.

Then no one should have any problems with raiden's F12 string AND raiden could still be able to stagger strings effectively.
 
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