Guide - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GRANDMASTER Guide

Part of the reason I'm losing faith in Sub is because of how slow responses are on this board. I feel there are no proper answers to counter his weakness (i.e escaping a frametrap).

@Durango, look at the thread and post volume for the other character sub-forums and quit whining. People aren't here to personally answer to all of your grievances and complaints, and you have to be willing to either do some digging through post history, or use the tools in training mode to find your answers.

The principle advantages for Cryomancer from neutral are his superior d2, and his f122 & 111 chains. In terms of combo-ability, he does slightly more damage mid-screen, but only when he's willing to end the combo w/o a knockdown.

Grandmaster provides you with a lot more control over the pacing of the match. Even with the nerfs, clones allow you to stake space on the screen, setting up a wall to protect you and prevent advancement by your opponents. Through strategic clone use, you can slowly back your opponent toward the corner, taking relatively few risks. Once you have them there, and put them in jail, GM's corner game is an absolutely nightmare to which no character in the game has a good response.

In that sense, GM is more strategically cohesive in his gameplan. He has tools to put you in the corner, and tools to keep you there. Cryo doesn't have any of these tools - the strings he gets in exchange do not, in my opinion, provide adequate compensation.


On dealing with frame traps: block or armour through them? I don't understand the problem here.

BasiKs said:

@Durango, look at the thread and post volume for the other character sub-forums and quit whining. People aren't here to personally answer to all of your grievances and complaints, and you have to be willing to either do some digging through post history, or use the tools in training mode to find your answers.

The principle advantages for Cryomancer from neutral are his superior d2, and his f122 & 111 chains. In terms of combo-ability, he does slightly more damage mid-screen, but only when he's willing to end the combo w/o a knockdown.

Grandmaster provides you with a lot more control over the pacing of the match. Even with the nerfs, clones allow you to stake space on the screen, setting up a wall to protect you and prevent advancement by your opponents. Through strategic clone use, you can slowly back your opponent toward the corner, taking relatively few risks. Once you have them there, and put them in jail, GM's corner game is an absolutely nightmare to which no character in the game has a good response.

In that sense, GM is more strategically cohesive in his gameplan. He has tools to put you in the corner, and tools to keep you there. Cryo doesn't have any of these tools - the strings he gets in exchange do not, in my opinion, provide adequate compensation.


On dealing with frame traps: block or armour through them? I don't understand the problem here.

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111 and F112? Looking at Tom Brady's combos on the guide, these are almost never mentioned, to include in the combo section. So I almost never use them.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/sub-zero-cryomancer-guide.49880/

I don't see how they're particularly useful, honestly.

I mean frametraps and 50/50s. Players who stuff your wakeup or won't let you get back on your feet, and how to retaliate through their blockstrings.

Solid said:

A little birdie sang a song and in that song it said that they are going to remove gm Sub-Zero's throw into clone freeze and free combo. I only wish, if it is true, that they give us a hard knockdown instead so that we can apply okizeme.

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If they do I'll be very upset, but not surprised at all, also I love how no one even addressed that.

Subzeeros said:

If they do I'll be very upset, but not surprised at all, also I love how no one even addressed that.

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Yes. You are the first to respond to my post too. I was watching Aris's stream and Paulo said it in the stream chat. If he was serious or trolling is up for grabs but I don't think he was kidding. Hopefully they will let it rock.

PwnStar said:

Just me or is Sub zero the most technical character in terms of conditional combos? I can't imagine the rest of the cast has to struggle with stance and gender near as much as GM sub. Just to check though...are we finding the combos only differ by gender? Like if I combo a huge Goro, it will be the same as Kung Lao's scrawny ass or will I have to make adjustments. (I plan to test...but there's only so many hours in a day)

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Reminds me of old school 2D MK. There were basic combos that worked on everyone, but more advanced stuff gets more and more limited due to collision.

Guys I know this is not the right forum for this but all of you are more knowledgeable than me when it comes to fighting games. I need to learn how to get the most out of training in particular how to counter strings. Once I've blocked a string I don't seem to know what to do next, I either land up blocking another string or I am too slow to react and then eat a full combo or I try ex ice burst but again my timing is too inconsistent- that includes wakeups.

If you could please point me in the right direction, remember any help is greatly appreciated.

Solid said:

Yes. You are the first to respond to my post too. I was watching Aris's stream and Paulo said it in the stream chat. If he was serious or trolling is up for grabs but I don't think he was kidding. Hopefully they will let it rock.

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I hope He will let it rock, But he is at combo breaker and I think he is going to be doing a lot of changes in the near future. How Sub turns out is probably going to be up in the air but something tells me that he is going to really kill sub in the long run, or rather what I should say is he is going to kill GM.

Not sure if this is known but i found a really good shatter combo option off of a B2 in the corner.

For the clone set up you can use B33D4 into clone and B2 from that position to pull this off while you are still behind the clone.

(with clone in front of you)
B2 - 24DB1 - 1 - 123slide 45%
B2 - 24DB1 - B12clone - NJP- JIP - B12slide 51%
B2 - 24DB1 - B12clone - NJP - Xray 59%

When you land the B2 the 24 has to be done when the opponent is the highest off the ground. So the 24 needs to be done immediately after the B2.
If that is too hard for some people you have the EXDB1 option for less damage. you dont have to worry about the 24 timing with this.

B2 - 24EXDB1 - 1 - 123slide 39%

Savage8-8 said:

Not sure if this is known but i found a really good shatter combo option off of a B2 in the corner.

For the clone set up you can use B33D4 into clone and B2 from that position to pull this off while you are still behind the clone.

(with clone in front of you)
B2 - 24DB1 - 1 - 123slide 45%
B2 - 24DB1 - B12clone - NJP- JIP - B12slide 51%
B2 - 24DB1 - B12clone - NJP - Xray 59%

When you land the B2 the 24 has to be done when the opponent is the highest off the ground. So the 24 needs to be done immediately after the B2.
If that is too hard for some people you have the EXDB1 option for less damage. you dont have to worry about the 24 timing with this.

B2 - 24EXDB1 - 1 - 123slide 39%

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@Odoyle combo is easier using 4 instead of 24 -> shatter clone and results in 52% damage.

mrsz said:

@Odoyle combo is easier using 4 instead of 24 -> shatter clone and results in 52% damage.

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Yes but that combo relies on clone placement. It only works if the clone is at the right distance. The good thing about the combos above is they can be performed with the clone right in front of your opponent and you behind the clone. As long as the clone is out of freezing range it can be as close as you want.

mrsz said:

@Odoyle combo is easier using 4 instead of 24 -> shatter clone and results in 52% damage.

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the 24 shatter seems to be more consistent tbh and can be done off b33 ice ball 242 njp bjp njk or basically any setup from close

I was wondering what's shatter on block? Does anyone know the data on that one?

Also figured I might as well share this.

Maybe it's useful or maybe it's old news, hope it helps someone.
(At the 13:40ish mark I discuss some anti-wakeup options for sub as well.)

So hasn't really been touched upon, and I haven't seen anyone else use this combo in any videos I've watched, so I think it's worth discussing aggressive follow ups to Clone cancel out of a block confirm.



I don't play much GM, but when I do I try to keep the pressure up and use Ice Clone to cancel out of blocked 50/50s. And for more defensive players, it might really throw a read off if you come barrelling out through the clone at close range if you've just been sitting behind it throwing Snowballs most the game. I really like F4 coming out of this, because it's range lets you use it basically the instant you surface the clone, and it's really not too bad on block as well. My video doesn't do an excellent job of showcasing the range I used it really late, you can use it much earlier and it still connects, and if you are landing it properly they should be in a vertical upsidedown position making the NJP much easier to land, like this:




It's really easy to get them to land into it like this off a B33, I just couldn't be assed to redo the combo because to record I need to play on the computerso it's a real effort wrestling with the shitty cheapass logitech controller. However it all works in the end no matter how they land, and you will get different positions depending on what move you cancelled the clone into, and any small movements your opponent may have done since.

Once you throw them into the clone, you also have time to jump over them and still get the NJP off, so you can use the wallcarry whichever direction you like.

that will not work in a real match, you cant just throw out random -7/-11 moves with a character designed to make you do mistakes.

not to mention this assumes your opponent is not moving, reacting or anything.

Qwark28 said:

that will not work in a real match, you cant just throw out random -7/-11 moves with a character designed to make you do mistakes.

not to mention this assumes your opponent is not moving, reacting or anything.

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I disagree. F42 is -6 on the block, and I don't think it really qualifies for "throwing out a random move" as if it's just coming straight out of a nuetral game, because the body of the animation covers the distance from the Clone to your opponent, depending on his positioning. It still connects if they are moving (also depending), and often can connect with the decision to react to the Clone by jumping it. It's an aggressive mix-up and is (I think) the best rushdown option after a clone cancel. If they move or do something else, you can do something else as well.

I may be wrong, but it's worked for me, so there it is.

character designed to make you do mistakes.

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Indeed. And while this has a defensive implication to it, catching them with an aggressive mix-up because they have been expecting your defensive play all game counts as "a mistake", don't limit yourself to linear thinking like "this is how we have to play - its just what we DO".

I GOT HANDS said:

I disagree. F42 is -6 on the block, and I don't think it really qualifies for "throwing out a random move" as if it's just coming straight out of a nuetral game, because the body of the animation covers the distance from the Clone to your opponent, depending on his positioning. It still connects if they are moving (also depending), and often can connect with the decision to react to the Clone by jumping it. It's an aggressive mix-up and is (I think) the best rushdown option after a clone cancel. If they move or do something else, you can do something else as well.

I may be wrong, but it's worked for me, so there it is.


Indeed. And while this has a defensive implication to it, catching them with an aggressive mix-up because they have been expecting your defensive play all game counts as "a mistake", don't limit yourself to linear thinking like "this is how we have to play - its just what we DO".

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I'm not "limiting" myself. I just know this often doesn't work because I play offline a lot with very good players.

It doesn't have to be a consistent, you don't need to spam it after every Ice Clone - our BnBs have been pretty cemented at this point, this obviously isn't one of them, it's an aggressive mix up to follow up from a Clone Cancel depending on the read. There's no point in rehashing BnB's at this point we all know them, so I'm going into more situational plays that we have as options, and there is a plenty of situations where this WILL work. No harm in expanding the repertoire.



EDIT: also you mentioned playing offline local, I'm gonna be honest I always gotta show off flashy moves in real life matches, this is basically the main time I use GM since hes got the plays, and this is flashy as hell lool. It's really not that impractical even if it isn't a BnB, I just pull it out every now and again - admittedly my priorities may be off a little haha

Savage8-8 said:

Not sure if this is known but i found a really good shatter combo option off of a B2 in the corner.

For the clone set up you can use B33D4 into clone and B2 from that position to pull this off while you are still behind the clone.

(with clone in front of you)
B2 - 24DB1 - 1 - 123slide 45%
B2 - 24DB1 - B12clone - NJP- JIP - B12slide 51%
B2 - 24DB1 - B12clone - NJP - Xray 59%

When you land the B2 the 24 has to be done when the opponent is the highest off the ground. So the 24 needs to be done immediately after the B2.
If that is too hard for some people you have the EXDB1 option for less damage. you dont have to worry about the 24 timing with this.

B2 - 24EXDB1 - 1 - 123slide 39%

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Here is a video form of the 24 clone shatter combos I made a while ago.

I GOT HANDS said:

It doesn't have to be a consistent, you don't need to spam it after every Ice Clone - our BnBs have been pretty cemented at this point, this obviously isn't one of them, it's an aggressive mix up to follow up from a Clone Cancel depending on the read. There's no point in rehashing BnB's at this point we all know them, so I'm going into more situational plays that we have as options, and there is a plenty of situations where this WILL work. No harm in expanding the repertoire.



EDIT: also you mentioned playing offline local, I'm gonna be honest I always gotta show off flashy moves in real life matches, this is basically the main time I use GM since hes got the plays, and this is flashy as hell lool. It's really not that impractical even if it isn't a BnB, I just pull it out every now and again - admittedly my priorities may be off a little haha

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I've been testing 12 as a poke with and without clone since the 2nd part of the string hits low and it has long reach. Ideally by doing this, will open your opponent for the overhead into slide, pushing em to the corner. I haven't tested this string extensively nor do I know the how safe it is.

But I agree with Quark, f42 doesn't really work as a mixup since most people tend to just sit in front of the clone, blocking and waiting for overhead/slide or they're doing njp like crazy.

@Qwark28 @I GOT HANDS

Yeah, I pretty well just see this for what it is. It's not an incredible option, and it's not going to come up often, but it's a cool tool to have in the kit. I don't see why you gotta hate on it, Qwark - and if you're playing a game w/ sub-zero that's entirely void of blocked f42s, I'd be interested in checking out some of your matches (Actually, I'd be interested in that anyway. Do you have any vids up?)

As a side note, I've been playing around with different enders in the corner, and have actually found f12 (my old standby) falling out of favour. The reason is that the clone placed afterward, while giving me the benefit of an untechable throw, it also causes immediate freeze after B2, allowing only for:
B2, Clone Freeze, NJP, fj1, bj1, [ender], which does like 22-26% dmg, instead of the 35-40% i could be getting if the clone were spaced further.

Also, with the clone that close, B33~MB Ice Smash doesn't combo properly (idk why this is, but try it - after a BNB into F12, and close-range ice clone, the MB Ice Smash after B33 is blockable for some reason), meaning I need to B33~Ice Ball for a 23-27% dmg combo off of low.

It might be nice to throw out now and again, but I've begun favouring b33d4 as an ender, which allows for high-damage meterless shatter combos, and is still safe.

What's everyone else using & why?

BasiKs said:

@Qwark28 @I GOT HANDS

Yeah, I pretty well just see this for what it is. It's not an incredible option, and it's not going to come up often, but it's a cool tool to have in the kit. I don't see why you gotta hate on it, Qwark - and if you're playing a game w/ sub-zero that's entirely void of blocked f42s, I'd be interested in checking out some of your matches (Actually, I'd be interested in that anyway. Do you have any vids up?)

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Thank you seeing what this is, and not thinking that I'm saying something it's not. There is a opportunities to land it, and common enough responses to Clone, such as jumping in over it, or throwing an projectile and immediately blocking, depending on the character can get a connect where Iceball wouldn't because this arrives faster, as will them attempting to cut the run in with a close range normal, thanks to the reach. And when you can land it there is simply no better option. As far as I know Nobody is saying its a BnB, just a niche option to have in the toolkit, that is the best option you can use for a lot of reads.

Also, I've seen TB connect F42s just coming out naked off the neutral game to get corner reversals off the throw, it's even more likely from behind a clone cancel IMO, it's really not that unsafe, and definitely not that unpractical, it's for certain reads. We've well and truly established the BnBs now, so I'm definitely interested in a little bit more niche / nuanced plays that are still practical and have a payoff.

If we've established new BNB's and setups someone should update the first post. It's still the pre-patch info right? Just started playing the game again now that I have more free time so it'd be nice if I had an easy place to get all the info.

Also a couple questions, what's the go-to mid-screen combo off an air freeze from an iceball? I've been doing really basic ones and just kinda freestyling but I want to get into a habit of doing the more optimal ones now.

Second question is the basic gameplan seems to be get them to the corner, get a hard knockdown, set up clone and mix them up with b2, b33, and grab, correct? Well what are the major differences between the hard knockdown setups? I've seen people do nj.K, f12, 112, and also b33d4 as enders to set up clone. Are they interchangeable or do they lead to different spacings/timings?

My biggest issue in my matches seems to be when I get the corner people neutral jump out, and I whiff my string underneath them and they punish me on the way down. If I learn the proper timing on the hard knockdowns will they still be able to jump out or will my string basically be meaty and catch them?

AniMoney said:

Also a couple questions, what's the go-to mid-screen combo off an air freeze from an iceball? I've been doing really basic ones and just kinda freestyling but I want to get into a habit of doing the more optimal ones now.

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NJP, JIP, Run, 123->Slide

Land then JIP the second you can, buffer the run while you are in the air, and pretty much launch the 123 as soon as you land. The timing is tight but you need a little bit of distance from the run. Theres a video of me doing it a couple of posts up even tho it's from a ground freeze, it's the only worthwhile finisher to a freeze if they've already been "launched" and you can't combo off 242.

Would grandmaster still be considered his best variation? It is the only variation i have tried so far. I have not looked into properly learning sub in this game yet.