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General/Other - Sub-Zero Changes You Feel Sub Needs?

PwnStar

Noob
So I'm making this thread in hopes NRS or the community can gather opinions on changes to better guide Sub Zero in future updates with rational reasons as to why.

Currently GM just got a major nerf that seemed needed to some degree...however poorly executed as overkill in a lot of minds. Prior it also seemed GM was far superior to the other stances due to stronger neutral, set ups, and even damage (in corner). So here are my thoughts on changes to the variants (and yes currently they're all buffs as he no longer has any OP attributes I can see).

Grandmaster: I personally would like to see the clone not shatter on block...however since this seems to be the direction they want, I feel the hitbox needs to be improved or another effect applied. Sub doesn't have great mix ups, so clone was a way for him to apply pressure, he can no longer do that in the same way as many characters can easily poke him through it and now enter full pressure strings as though it wasn't there.

  • Improve the hitbox - Prevent some moves from being able to get at Sub such as Raiden's electric fly that has EXTREMELY inconsistent results with going through clone or getting frozen. Sub should have to keep his distance to hide behind clone, but currently some disjointed hitboxes are absurd and can reach him on what is essentially a long recovery move if it's not doing its job.
  • Knockback on block shattered clone - If Sub Zero blocks, clones shatters and all nearby characters are knocked back slightly. So if Sub blocks, both characters will likely push apart and be at neutral frames.This gives the opponent an out, but doesn't let them not respect it entirely to establish an offense, as is the case now (D'vorah wrecks clones now)
Cryomancer: Cryomancer only offers a few things over GM: Better midscreen damage, standing reset, and d2. Aside from that the other moves really only play a part in combos. Once in corner GM out damages Cryo and clone set ups are stronger than standing resets. His big sell is consistent damage and easy execution, but he still has the linear play of Sub Zero with no real neutral advantages over the other variations, he needs stronger mixups. (don't get me wrong b2 is great, but this variations feels like it needs more of an edge).

  • Improve Hammer recovery - Hammers are too easy to block on reaction since they're slow and currently only the EX~hammer has practical use in combos and situational armor instances (often slide and shatter are better options aside from combo conversion miscreen). If you make hammers safe, Sub now has mix up pressure.
  • Increase drop speed of air Hammer and make it safe on block - This move is currently way too slow and unsafe for practical use. It really has no use aside from some very high risk/low reward shenanigans. I feel it needs to be faster to make it useful as an air movement cancel and, if BOTH hits are blocked, should be safe (should definitely NOT be safe on just the ground hit).
  • An overhead string or move - Aside from hammers, Sub could also use more overhead moves to open opponents up (we already got lows). 111 currently seems like an unoptimal combo filler with no real neutral purpose (correct me if I'm wrong), possibly retweek that to be a mix up string.
Unbreakable: My issue with this variation is that it is the lowest damage by far and you lose EX~smash, which is an awesome tool to armor through moves like jump ins (which do not get countered). The defensive buff and counters don't seem to make up for the low damage output and lack of pressure mixups.

  • Counter works on aerial attacks - It's far too easy to make jumps at this variations to avoid the counter, which is the main sell of the variation. This will help gain more hits to offset the linear neutral options.
  • Improve aura recovery - If you improve the recovery you could make more moves useful as pressure tools to cancel into aura and keep applying pressure. Since it is a long activation, it offsets the ability to abuse it repeatedly. You could also potentially up combo damage in corner if a move can cancel into aura and continue the juggle.
Post your thoughts and opinions. This isn't a forum to cry over nerfs/need for buffs, it's merely to post observations and argue their validity (for all I know Unbreakable could be a secret top tier with unexplored tech I'm unaware of).
 
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TheIrishFGCguy

Pew pew pew
The shatter on block is so stupid. People can carelessly jump right over the klone and kick you in the face for free (at the right range). I shouldn't have to back up and waste meter for a db1 to anti-air because that completely defeats the purpose of the klone being a shield. If they hit me that's whatever, but if I block the attack they should fall down into the klone and pay for being so careless.
I'm cool if they want to add a little cool down so people have a chance to get out of the corner when the initial klone disappears, but at least get rid of that stupid block shatter.

As for your other suggestions, Cryomancer definitely doesn't need another overhead. Sub's B2 is already glorious.
 
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Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
Get rid of the goddamn block shatter.

Or, Quan Cheese's bat needs to disappear on block as well. Takeda's ronin blade recalled on block. Etc.
 

Temp

Salmon. Otters. The Bringer.
I main Cryo Sub, and honestly, I'm pretty happy with him. The only thing I'd change is extend the ex-armor duration by two seconds in unbreakable. That's literally it.
 

Linkuei82

Live by the sword, Die by the sword
I think the shatter on block was overkill. It was never like that with the older games.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Also with Cryomancer's suggestions... are you even serious? You've got a fucking amazing overhead in B2 why do you need another one?! And Hammer being safe on block is only fair. It looks like you want Sub-Zero to be Kabal or something.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Wait wait are you talking about MK9 Sub-Zero? Because that's the only explanation of wanting more overheads...
 

NB Semi Evil Ryu

Former Sub-Zero of the Midwest (2011 - 2015)
Honestly, the only thing that probably needs changed is the glitch where his midscreen B33, ice ball being a successful hit string on only female characters. Either have it so that it's a true string on all characters or don't have it be a true string at all against any character (which would pretty much be a nerf, in my opinion).

Outside of that.....Let It Be.
 
The shatter on block is so stupid. People can carelessly jump right over the klone and kick you in the face for free (at the right range). I shouldn't have to back up and waste meter for a db1 to anti-air because that completely defeats the purpose of the klone being a shield. If they hit me that's whatever, but if I block the attack they should fall down into the klone and pay for being so careless.
I'm cool if they want to add a little cool down so people have a chance to get out of the corner when the initial klone disappears, but at least get rid of that stupid block shatter.

As for your other suggestions, Cryomancer definitely doesn't need another overhead. Sub's B2 is already glorious.
Yeah, totally agree on GM. The clone shatter on block is silly and completely defeats the whole purpose of what the Klone is there for in the first place. I cannot see NRS reversing the Klone back to pre-patch properties of non shattering on block. Cool down is fine, we can work with that.
 

PwnStar

Noob
Weird...you make a thread to promote ideas and even the push to criticize there validity...and everyone loses their shit rather than make calm and logical counter points.

Some of these are musings and I fully respect that they may be too strong, but currently I feel Cyro/Unbreakable are under powered and just need a little more love. GM's nerf was harsh and while it indeed needed a nerf, I'm toying with ideas to make it more feasable (I think the sub community agrees that shatter clone is REALLY overkill nerfing). I mean if you all trust NRS to patch things without community input besides the kneejerk reactions...be my guest. Or we can have critical conversations here. So offer your own suggestions or modifications to those posted (EX: Maybe you like one part of the suggestion, but feel the other parts are too much).

Calm your tits Quark28...
 

Death

Noob
The shatter on block is so stupid. People can carelessly jump right over the klone and kick you in the face for free (at the right range). I shouldn't have to back up and waste meter for a db1 to anti-air because that completely defeats the purpose of the klone being a shield. If they hit me that's whatever, but if I block the attack they should fall down into the klone and pay for being so careless.
I'm cool if they want to add a little cool down so people have a chance to get out of the corner when the initial klone disappears, but at least get rid of that stupid block shatter.

As for your other suggestions, Cryomancer definitely doesn't need another overhead. Sub's B2 is already glorious.
If your hiding behind the clone and someone jumps over and is at the right range to kick you in the face than you should get blown up. Put your self in a position where that doesnt happen. you know like backdash.. and they fall into the clone. Thats called having good spacing which is kinda important