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Tech - Hellfire Concealed resets to perform mini vortexes using hellfire effectivity

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist

- To a perfect conceal, you have to delay your B3 for exact 2 frames, which in this window, scorpion will look like he is doing a combo when in fact he is just intentionally dropping.
- Jump in 1 into F4 doesn't link, it will catch players trying to block B3 without fuzzying it
- A longer delay will give you the advantage to react to the fuzzy guarding.

This can turn dificult to block if you pick different spots to reset, like a reseting with flame aura straight into overhead, or delaying for 3 frames into low.
Jumping out of teleport to do a crossup 3, or a empty jump into low or overhead.
Or not doing resets at all, which will make them forget about this, then you reset.

Those examples without sound was actual battle footage, i think i can go further in this and make it complete random, but this will take some time to grasp all hellfire potential, but its a glimpse.


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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
After FA, when you do B3, if you do it too late, it's a reset, too early, combo, if they block, fbc to make it safe. What I've been doing is doing it late, connecting the B3 on a reset, and fbrc to combo off of the B3 into the same reset situation.
 

Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
Dammit, he's got way too many options up close. I sense a nerf.
Its not easy though. Execution just looks easy until done yourself.
I remember back in SF when Viper had so many cancel strings and everyone thought they could do it..
HA! Leave him be. Hellfire aint easy to play.
 

kivatt

Kono Dio Da
Indeed. That's what impresses me about it. :p Will take some time to use it reliably in a real match but it will be worth it.
It's sad I can probably learn this on practice mode, but in a real match that's a whole new thing.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
It's sad I can probably learn this on practice mode, but in a real match that's a whole new thing.
Well for what it's worth, at least practice mode in this game gives you insightful options to test stuff like this out. In MK9 it literally took years before we figured out some things could be linked or punished lmao.
 

Triplswing

your soe will BERRN
Its not easy though. Execution just looks easy until done yourself.
I remember back in SF when Viper had so many cancel strings and everyone thought they could do it..
HA! Leave him be. Hellfire aint easy to play.
I can do it, and I still feel he's overpowered.

Let me put it into perspective. Scorpion can get a 45% 1 bar combo, followed by an uninterruptible blockstring that does a further 18%. If scorpion lands a hit at the start of the match, he goes straight into his BnB and it's gonna be at least 38% regardless of what the hit was.

Now, let's say, the opponent tries to return after one rep of his 214 FBRC blockstring. He can now hit confirm a combo reset, and if the opponent doesn't break that combo he can end the round before they ever get to move again. That's being forced to use a breaker that was entirely built from nothing but taking damage. What's worse, if they wasted their 1 bar of meter at the start of the round, they won't be able to build enough meter for a breaker before they lose all their health.

Now, let's say in the second round, scorpion lands another combo. This time, the opponent turtles up and braces for the entire blockstring. Scorpion still has the opportunity to enforce a 50/50 after either of his FBRCs. Not only that, if he doesn't feel like taking risk, he can do the full blockstring and end it with an EX fireball using meter built entirely during the combo and blockstring, which leaves him at +8.

Now, from the average player's perspective, that blocked fireball is the signal to return. Scorpion can easily take advantage of this, because he is at +8. What happens next is obvious.

Now, against an expert, or someone who is equally familiar with hellfire, the logical thing to do is turtle up, because literally everything else is too risky. They are forced to eat huge amounts of chip damage after every combo, or even a teleport whiff punish. And again, every time this happens, Scorpion has all the options while the opponent has no good ones besides waste 2 bars of meter on a block breaker. Of course, this is speaking at the highest level. But even the best players I've met still attempt to take a risk after blocking an EX fireball, because it's their first chance to move since before they took over 60% damage.

All this, and not even considering his great long-range plays. Simply the threat of his unblockable can force the opponent to move (for some characters it forces them to simply jump forward), and that opens them up for teleport, among other things.

As for execution, anybody proficient in it will say that once it becomes muscle memory it's barely a problem at all.

No matter how I look at it, he has too many options.
 

Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
I can do it, and I still feel he's overpowered.

Let me put it into perspective. Scorpion can get a 45% 1 bar combo, followed by an uninterruptible blockstring that does a further 18%. If scorpion lands a hit at the start of the match, he goes straight into his BnB and it's gonna be at least 38% regardless of what the hit was.
Hopefully his damage isnt Injustice Scorpion :/

Now, let's say, the opponent tries to return after one rep of his 214 FBRC blockstring. He can now hit confirm a combo reset, and if the opponent doesn't break that combo he can end the round before they ever get to move again. That's being forced to use a breaker that was entirely built from nothing but taking damage. What's worse, if they wasted their 1 bar of meter at the start of the round, they won't be able to build enough meter for a breaker before they lose all their health.

Now, let's say in the second round, scorpion lands another combo. This time, the opponent turtles up and braces for the entire blockstring. Scorpion still has the opportunity to enforce a 50/50 after either of his FBRCs. Not only that, if he doesn't feel like taking risk, he can do the full blockstring and end it with an EX fireball using meter built entirely during the combo and blockstring, which leaves him at +8.

Now, from the average player's perspective, that blocked fireball is the signal to return. Scorpion can easily take advantage of this, because he is at +8. What happens next is obvious.

Now, against an expert, or someone who is equally familiar with hellfire, the logical thing to do is turtle up, because literally everything else is too risky. They are forced to eat huge amounts of chip damage after every combo, or even a teleport whiff punish. And again, every time this happens, Scorpion has all the options while the opponent has no good ones besides waste 2 bars of meter on a block breaker. Of course, this is speaking at the highest level. But even the best players I've met still attempt to take a risk after blocking an EX fireball, because it's their first chance to move since before they took over 60% damage.

All this, and not even considering his great long-range plays. Simply the threat of his unblockable can force the opponent to move (for some characters it forces them to simply jump forward), and that opens them up for teleport, among other things.

As for execution, anybody proficient in it will say that once it becomes muscle memory it's barely a problem at all.

No matter how I look at it, he has too many options.
So nerf him basically?
Maybe im just having Scorpion issues.
I dont feel his pressure is too strong outside of those cancels. Alot of people have been blocking the overhead on reflexes.
 

Triplswing

your soe will BERRN
I honestly feel his mixups arent as good. Just more of blocking and absorbing the flames which should make you a bit more nervous lol.
The blockstring pretty much guarantees 12-20% damage every time he gets a standing 2 blocked (unless he is out of stamina), and of course it's a hitconfirmable string on hit too. The fact that he can use meter to leave him at +8 is even better, and I actually noticed a couple days ago that if he does the blockstring ending with EX fireball, then does a teleport, he can immediately do another blockstring because his stamina will have recovered by then.

There's another case where a character had the opportunity to do something like this. Jin from Tekken 4, AKA the most broken character in competitive FG history.
 

Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
The blockstring pretty much guarantees 12-20% damage every time he gets a standing 2 blocked (unless he is out of stamina), and of course it's a hitconfirmable string on hit too. The fact that he can use meter to leave him at +8 is even better, and I actually noticed a couple days ago that if he does the blockstring ending with EX fireball, then does a teleport, he can immediately do another blockstring because his stamina will have recovered by then.

There's another case where a character had the opportunity to do something like this. Jin from Tekken 4, AKA the most broken character in competitive FG history.
Well i can understand giving up meter to be safe. Thats been the case for any fighting game that uses meter as such. Thats really not too big a deal for a common idea.
What would you suggest to make this "fair"
Tone down the block damage? Drop his frames (i wouldnt be shocked on this one) take away the cancel.?
Good thing his tourney placings suck hehehh.

If NRS touches Scorpion inhave a feeling hell become a bit whack.

I have a feeling that Ninjitsu is going to be his best after the next patch with all the Inferno complaints next.
 
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Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
Scorpion is extremely good in all variations, but Hellfire is looking almost broken. I think he'll get nerfed soon, cutting the advantage on fireball cancels might be an idea
 

Triplswing

your soe will BERRN
Well i can understand giving up meter to be safe. Thats been the case for any fighting game that uses meter as such. Thats really not too big a deal for a common idea.
What would you suggest to make this "fair"
Tone down the block damage? Drop his frames (i wouldnt be shocked on this one) take away the cancel.?
Good thing his tourney placings suck hehehh.

If NRS touches Scorpion inhave a feeling hell become a bit whack.

I have a feeling that Ninjitsu is going to be his best after the next patch with all the Inferno complaints next.
The blockstring builds almost an entire bar of meter on it's own so it's not much of a sacrifice.

As for how I'd balance it, I really don't know. Like I said, the last example of this was T4 Jin, and they didn't have game updates back in 2002 so the solution was that almost everybody picked him. I can only hope they are gentle with the unavoidable nerf (hellfire is still my main after all).
 

Hini

Batomancer
Its not easy though. Execution just looks easy until done yourself.
I remember back in SF when Viper had so many cancel strings and everyone thought they could do it..
HA! Leave him be. Hellfire aint easy to play.
Something beind hard to execute is exceptionally bad rationalization to keep something in a game.
 

Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
The blockstring builds almost an entire bar of meter on it's own so it's not much of a sacrifice.

As for how I'd balance it, I really don't know. Like I said, the last example of this was T4 Jin, and they didn't have game updates back in 2002 so the solution was that almost everybody picked him. I can only hope they are gentle with the unavoidable nerf (hellfire is still my main after all).
I didnt realize the whole meter building part. Interesting. Is this really broken?
This is lame :/
But i was mostly referring to the ex FB being safe cause of meter. I need reasons to keep this here. Someone delete all this tech so NRS "balance" team wont see it
:DOGE
 
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Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
Something beind hard to execute is exceptionally bad rationalization to keep something in a game.
Screw you man. Ive been practicing this for a while :(
I get to enjoy Scorpion. Be should be a bit broken. So much vengeance and hatred should be exploited as such
 

Triplswing

your soe will BERRN
I didnt realize the whole meter building part. Interesting. Is this really broken?
This is lame :/
But i was mostly referring to the ex FB being safe cause of meter. I need reasons to keep this here. Someone delete all this tech so NRS "balance" team wont see it
:DOGE
Maybe if we keep it quiet for another 6 months NRS will feel like it's too late to patch and then we can gloat about hellfire master race lol