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Strategy - Sun God The problem with Sun God's charge system

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
All of those characters have solid tools, mixups and ways of opening up their opponent.

Kotal has no mixups, no + frames, no jumps.

Just 1 special that opens up his opponent. And it's horrible at best, easily being the worst command throw in the game.
Actually, he does have plus frames in the form of ex df3 as an ender on block strings and 114~df1. If you trade these off, which I personally find pretty difficult, you can gain back most of the meter you spend on block. That said, I still think his command grab needs work.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Actually, he does have plus frames in the form of ex df3 as an ender on block strings and 114~df1. If you trade these off, which I personally find pretty difficult, you can gain back most of the meter you spend on block. That said, I still think his command grab needs work.
Realistically, you will not generally land 114 air snatch due to 1 being high and 10f.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Realistically, you will not generally land 114 air snatch due to 1 being high and 10f.
If you do it right, b122~ex df3, RC, 114~df1, actually will force them to block the 114. But as I said, it's pretty difficult. It's more doable in War God. Maybe you're right though. It might not be realistically worth doing. I'd say go with b1 or f1 from an EX Sunstone ender, but they're both unsafe in Sun/Blood God.

Also, is 1 10 frames now? Really starting to regret being a PC player. Bet we'll get the next patch in 3 weeks or so :/.
 

RYX

BIG PUSHER
All of those characters have solid tools, mixups and ways of opening up their opponent.

Kotal has no mixups, no + frames, no jumps.

Just 1 special that opens up his opponent. And it's horrible at best, easily being the worst command throw in the game.
EX sunstone is +15 on block in sun/blood and it's fantastic for chip damage and pressure
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
EX sunstone is +15 on block in sun/blood and it's fantastic for chip damage and pressure
And is only a blockstring from 114, which you would rather whiff an air throw from in most cases. Sun choke will not reach and the only thing that is a blockstring from the pushback is an unsafe string.
 

SEV

Noob
I've been wanting to pick up Sun God as my first go at Kotal and for the reasons you just said I feel like he's supposed to be played as a defensive pillar based around his Sun Ray/Beam(whatever the healing one is called), not his command grab.

It seems to me that you want end your combo with B34(I think that's that one that sends them fullish screen) into the Sun Ray(And I know that isn't a completely safe set-up, but that goes with the meta/mindgame), then use Sun Discs for conditioning their approach.

He seems like he should be difficult to open up on paper, even more so if he has a bar of meter. Just stand in the healing ray to force movement from your opponent while you heal. They can't jump in because of his air grab, his buttons have ridiculous range so he has great footsies, and he has his parry.

I'm sure you guys that play Kotal know about this, but when I was practicing a different character on a very hard Kotal bot, it parried my string into ex command grab for the armor. :eek: (I never knew you could do that, and that's what made me want to pick him up).

Having the ability to parry into armor means the opponent must be very respectful on incoming(not sure if it counters armor though) if Kotal has a bar, and with 2 bars, you can have a 2 frame start up parry into an armored throw. Even though the damage is small, this can be HUGE in closing situations, especially if you're sitting on level three sun level or whatever it's called, possibly with the damage buff too.

The potential to do things like that is why I believe the lower damage on the command grab is justified, even though I think the base damage could probably start a bit higher, even if it still caps at 16% at level three.

So his defensive options, healing and buffs, coupled with button range, I get why he doesn't have ridiculous options for opening you up. He seems like a defensive footsie character, meant to play a more reactive play style rather than a proactive one.

All that being said, I don't play the character, yet. Do any of you guys that have played him more know a reason why playing this type of style with him wouldn't really work? Seems good on paper, but I know that doesn't mean it can actually work in game.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I've been wanting to pick up Sun God as my first go at Kotal and for the reasons you just said I feel like he's supposed to be played as a defensive pillar based around his Sun Ray/Beam(whatever the healing one is called), not his command grab.

It seems to me that you want end your combo with B34(I think that's that one that sends them fullish screen) into the Sun Ray(And I know that isn't a completely safe set-up, but that goes with the meta/mindgame), then use Sun Disks for conditioning their approach.

He seems like he should be difficult to open up on paper, even more so if he has a bar of meter. Just stand in the healing ray to force movement from your opponent while you heal. They can't jump in because of his air grab, his buttons have ridiculous range so he has great footsies, and he has his parry.

I'm sure you guys that Kotal know about this, but when I was practicing a different character on a very hard bot, it parried my string into ex command grab for the armor.:eek: (I never knew you could do that).

Having the ability to parry into armor means the opponent must be very respectful on incoming(not sure if it counters armor though) if Kotal has a bar, and with 2 bar, you can have a 2 frame start up parry into an armored throw. Even though the damage is small, this can be HUGE in closing situations, especially if you're sitting on level three sun level or whatever it's called, possibly with the damage buff too.

The potential to do things like that is why I believe the lower damage on the command grab is justified, even though I think the base damage could probably start a bit higher, even if it still caps at 16% at level three.

So his defensive options, healing and buffs, coupled with button range, I get why he doesn't have ridiculous options for opening you up. He seems like a defensive footsie character, meant to play a more reactive play style rather than a proactive one.

All that being said, I don't play the character, yet. Do any of you guys that have played him more know a reason why playing this type of style with him wouldn't really work? Seems good on paper, but I know that doesn't mean it can actually work in game.
Let me break this down.

I've been experimenting with damage %s and ending in F12 sun ray myself, I need to test this out next time.

Sun disc is extremely slow, someone running up to you will 100% guaranteed hit you out of it, it's better if you uae something like F1B2/F2

Parrying into armour costs 2 meters for a command throw that you need to charge up. You're never going to do a non-mb parry because it's 9f with lesser actives and death on whiff.
 

SEV

Noob
Let me break this down.

I've been experimenting with damage %s and ending in F12 sun ray myself, I need to test this out next time.

Sun disc is extremely slow, someone running up to you will 100% guaranteed hit you out of it, it's better if you uae something like F1B2/F2

Parrying into armour costs 2 meters for a command throw that you need to charge up. You're never going to do a non-mb parry because it's 9f with lesser actives and death on whiff.
That's definitely a punish? I was just trying to think of something that would slow their incoming so you could get more from healing. I figured it would be a punish if they want to spend bar if they have a move to cover the distance, but they can actually react to the start up and get a run punish off?

I know 2 bars is expensive but you can't lie, the potential for that set up is ridiculous for closing situations.

And curious how are your tick throws normally punished? Armor or is the recovery long enough that they can they NJ punish? And I know that's something I could test but while you're here. :D
 

stamatis

Όσα δε φτάνει η αλεπού. ........
Only a bad or broken player would get hit by so many command throws.

Any one person can get in your head with good reads, the problem is that the reads are very risky and very improbable.

Kotal's grab is slow, death on whiff andn ot damaging. The mixup is never in your favor which is ironic as you're supposed to be the aggressor.

Command grabs are there to threaten loss, not annoyance.
Οκ,I saw a match today with this variation,the guy used it once,I would say he played more like war god and not sun,maybe it is just a bad variation,it would not be the first in the game
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
That's definitely a punish? I was just trying to think of something that would slow their incoming so you could get more from healing. I figured it would be a punish if they want to spend bar if they have a move to cover the distance, but they can actually react to the start up and get a run punish off?

I know 2 bars is expensive but you can't lie, the potential for that set up is ridiculous for closing situations.

And curious how are your tick throws normally punished? Armor or is the recovery long enough that they can they NJ punish? And I know that's something I could test but while you're here. :D
EX Sun choke is more than enough to catch someone out of their normals, I use it all the time.

You can armour, jump or backdash out of his tick throws.
 

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
It's just that I don't agree with the comparison being applicable at all. And I don't find your reasons for why he is designed this way particularly convincing. Yes, d4 can punish a lot of things...for 3% and either a throw or a block string after with the hit advantage you get off of it. Not exactly crippling.

His parry is another issue that probably deserves it's own discussion thread. It's theoretically good, but in practice, it kind of flounders. I wish it worked against jump ins. You might be able to understand just how much I hate people that jump in at me all day when I can barely do anything about it, d2 having a weird hitbox, airthrow being inconsistent, and d3...well I should use that more.

He's unsafe as hell, his only options for opening people up are his throws and frame traps, and the truth is his other moves DON'T make up for this.
Only reason I mentioned d4 is due to it being such a consistent punish you are allowed get away other things. Not necessarily using the hit advantage but command grab in its place since they know a punish is coming anyway but that's more gimmicky than anything. But that's where my poke damage comparison came from
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I dont know, that's for the Kotal player to figure out. That's fighting games for you. it's the same concept as any other parry, to punish them for pressing a button.
Honestly, the parry is almost useless considering you have an armoured command grab. It's situational and just bad to balance around.
 

just_2swift

MK1 is the best MK period.
Each time he cashes in scorch let's say lvl3 16% and he starts over at lvl 1 sun choke again but this time lvl 1 now does 16% lvl 2~ 21% lvl 3~26%. Idk hell sun God is a Bill scorch is a Bill at least give his sun choke more knock down frames to set up sun Ray successfully.
 

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
Honestly, the parry is almost useless considering you have an armoured command grab. It's situational and just bad to balance around.
Yea I agree. I find it much easier to just command grab. But theoretically, if there became a practical for use for parry, I think command grab would be justified? I do have a question though for @Qwark28 & @Second Saint. When do you usually reach lv3 in a match?
 

just_2swift

MK1 is the best MK period.
I remember in one of the streams NRS had they mentioned his normal grab added to the charges as well
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Yea I agree. I find it much easier to just command grab. But theoretically, if there became a practical for use for parry, I think command grab would be justified? I do have a question though for @Qwark28 & @Second Saint. When do you usually reach lv3 in a match?
In a matchup I know, end of first round.

I'm thinking of changing that and ending all my stuff in in F12 for ray setups though.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Yea I agree. I find it much easier to just command grab. But theoretically, if there became a practical for use for parry, I think command grab would be justified? I do have a question though for @Qwark28 & @Second Saint. When do you usually reach lv3 in a match?
I don't really get to play people much because I'm on PC and...well High Voltage's idea of what minimum specs should accomplish in a fighting game and mine are not exactly the same. I'd say 60 fps, even if it looks like shit and you're on low as hell resolution, they must've thought "the game turns on."

On top of that, I'm not really a good player. Sunk 100+ hours into Kotal alone, and I'd barely say I'm competent. I'm good in the lab, and I share what I find with anyone who might need it. I know theory, setups, and combos for days, but I can never really apply what I know. I feel I can offer solid input for design discussions like this one, but in game, I'm pretty bad.

In short, you should defer to Qwark on that.
 

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
In a matchup I know, end of first round.

I'm thinking of changing that and ending all my stuff in in F12 for ray setups though.
Yea I'm headed in that direction s well. Match flows much better with rays and opponents forced to approach. I try to play this character the lamest way possible.
 

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
I've been wanting to pick up Sun God as my first go at Kotal and for the reasons you just said I feel like he's supposed to be played as a defensive pillar based around his Sun Ray/Beam(whatever the healing one is called), not his command grab.
One of the many reasons that I initially decided to main Kotal was because I thought Sun Ray/God Ray was one of the coolest moves (both aesthetically as well as conceptually) in the entire game. As someone who has tried to use that move ad nauseum, I can assure you that the frame data just doesn't make it plausible to play him as "a defensive pillar based around his Sun Ray/Beam." Simply put, the move has way too many recovery frames to actually be used as a primary tactic in his game plan.


He seems like he should be difficult to open up on paper, even more so if he has a bar of meter. Just stand in the healing ray to force movement from your opponent while you heal. They can't jump in because of his air grab, his buttons have ridiculous range so he has great footsies, and he has his parry.
Again, this would be much more plausible if his Sun Ray/God Ray didn't have SO many recovery frames and you could actually get it out repeatedly in a safe manner (i.e. Like Jason's heal buff).

Also, his air grab just isn't a particularly good anti-air tool. It trades or gets beat out far too often. Overall, its meh as far as AA goes.


Having the ability to parry into armor means the opponent must be very respectful on incoming(not sure if it counters armor though) if Kotal has a bar, and with 2 bars, you can have a 2 frame start up parry into an armored throw. Even though the damage is small, this can be HUGE in closing situations, especially if you're sitting on level three sun level or whatever it's called, possibly with the damage buff too.

The potential to do things like that is why I believe the lower damage on the command grab is justified, even though I think the base damage could probably start a bit higher, even if it still caps at 16% at level three.
This is cool, but the ability to land a parry and close out a match with an armored sun choke is far too situational to warrant Sun God's command grab damage being so painfully mediocre. The "potential to do things like that" (for two bars, no less) just isn't as good as having a considerably more damaging command grab would be.
 

just_2swift

MK1 is the best MK period.
if that were true I'd be able to just use normal throw, get free meter off scorches and ignore sun choke altogether which at this point would be a dream
I'm sure I heard this in the stream when they showed off Kotal
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Can a guy at least decide which way to throw them?

I should have the option with each level to throw them one way or the other. With blood offering I go for his normal throw more than his command throw. I forget the damage though.

Reality is though that War God is a pretty punishable variation that as people adjust, will quickly be punished both for gaps and going for unsafe 50/50s.

I feel that Sungod is his "safer" variation since he is built around gaining life back as well as unblockable mixups. Essentially, he is a tank that does low to moderate damage and gains back life overtime.

When I view it this way, I feel more comfortable playing him. War god isn't as safe as you might think.

@Pnut
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Can a guy at least decide which way to throw them?

I should have the option with each level to throw them one way or the other. With blood offering I go for his normal throw more than his command throw. I forget the damage though.

Reality is though that War God is a pretty punishable variation that as people adjust, will quickly be punished both for gaps and going for unsafe 50/50s.

I feel that Sungod is his "safer" variation since he is built around gaining life back as well as unblockable mixups. Essentially, he is a tank that does low to moderate damage and gains back life overtime.

When I view it this way, I feel more comfortable playing him. War god isn't as safe as you might think.

@Pnut
No, instead, as decided by NRS, if you want to go lvl 3, use your damage for the most damage possible or do a simple tick throw, you're never going to see the corner.

At least that's how it goes in my matches. I play Kotal for 2 days, both those days I can remember maybe 3 instances where I cornered people and that was because they didn't let me grab them as often.

And sadly, normal throw, S4 or even D2 are the best sun ray setups.