General/Other - Takeda The Problem With Takeda.

GuerillaTactix said:

I get that that a change like that to lasher would change his niche but isn't that honestly what the variation system should be for? Right now his three variations seem similar in they all have slow normals and nothing plus on block enough to set them up. Do you get what I mean? If he could establish a good amount of block advantage to make his b21 or b3 come out so that he had a true 50/50 that would honestly give him an answer to the characters that knock him down and shit in his mouth on wakeup. At the same time a change like that could easily be broken and I don't want that either.

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You know I just did a scenario in my mind where mind games would start that would be too broke in his favor if this was the case. Your first instinct would be to jump out of that pressure but his anti air would stop that and if you blocked his b21 he'd go right back into that same pressure. Probably not a good idea I guess.. Maybe there's a way to balance that variation with that in mind though.

GuerillaTactix said:

You know I just did a scenario in my mind where mind games would start that would be too broke in his favor if this was the case. Your first instinct would be to jump out of that pressure but his anti air would stop that and if you blocked his b21 he'd go right back into that same pressure. Probably not a good idea I guess.. Maybe there's a way to balance that variation with that in mind though.

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Maybe make it so the AA hits a bit harder or you can get some small damage off of it so you can get better positioning?

EDIT: I'm probably gonna do some extensive testing this weekend with Lasher for MUs, I really believe this variation isn't being explored enough in matches.

GuerillaTactix said:

Extremely..

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While there is some merit in the release date argument for the game as a whole, it doesn't take a genius to see glaring deficiencies in character design. I invite all people who think Takeda doesn't need buffs to play him for a few hours.

haketh said:

Maybe make it so the AA hits a bit harder or you can get some small damage off of it so you can get better positioning?

EDIT: I'm probably gonna do some extensive testing this weekend with Lasher for MUs, I really believe this variation isn't being explored enough in matches.

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I agree that there's a more under the surface there. I'll explore it a bit myself.

This thread is a shit show

roosTakk said:

This thread is a shit show

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>Is a Cyrax player
>Ayyye lmfao

Alucard said:

>Is a Cyrax player
>Ayyye lmfao

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What does that matter? I also main Takeda

@Zyphox the reason people react like this is because you don't say these things in a measured way. If the OP was worded better, as well as some of your responses, this could have been an informative thread.

SR is one variation, and lasher holds the answers to some of your stated problems.

IMO, b21 kunai should only jail at point blank, otherwise it is just stupid if he could jail you at midscreen and force most of the cast to simply inch their way in whilst Takeda just throws shit out all day. The opponent needs options too. A faster d1 however wouldn't go amiss.

LEGEND said:

Your response makes absolutely no sense

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Just like your free hate about this discussion.

Once they take option selects out, armouring will carry the risk of a full combo punish for most of the cast. That should help quite a bit.

Not really informed enough about him to suggest specific buffs though

Phosferrax said:

@Zyphox the reason people react like this is because you don't say these things in a measured way. If the OP was worded better, as well as some of your responses, this could have been an informative thread.

SR is one variation, and lasher holds the answers to some of your stated problems.

IMO, b21 kunai should only jail at point blank, otherwise it is just stupid if he could jail you at midscreen and force most of the cast to simply inch their way in whilst Takeda just throws shit out all day. The opponent needs options too. A faster d1 however wouldn't go amiss.

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Kenshi can do this pretty well full screen still though.

just give him the magical time snake

i don't think takeda's that bad but i've only been playing Ronin. the sword calls are fun to play with

I'd like to congratulate the Takeda community in general and Zyphox in particular for winning week 4 of the Salt Report. Gratz guys

Teleport cancel is not punishable by anything except MB reptile slide which I believe is 4 frames so anything 4 frames or slower even from point blank range is safe with teleport cancel.

With that being said I think he can use maybe one more string without a gap as long as it's not the triple overhead string.

Charybdis said:

I'd like to congratulate the Takeda community in general and Zyphox in particular for winning week 4 of the Salt Report. Gratz guys

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did know this was a thing..wow.. who keeps track of all this stuff. must be a hard damn job... man all the effort people put into the things they contribute to this forum just amazes me to no end.. i am truly amazed at such talent. if only i had the time or the mental capacity to bring so helpful incite as this and other similar comments.. oh id like to add that the game has only been out since that one day..

REALLY PEOPLE ... JFC.. give it a rest .. if you dont use takeda, didnt come in this forum to look for strategy how to beat takeda, or dont even have a general knowledge of takedas moveset - then what are you in here for? i mean everyone is welcome to read/say/type what they want, but why does someone else opinion of a character you care nothing about matter so much to you to where you would want to inject something that neither helps or advises ? Are you attacking Takeda or just the OP? cause if your just doing it to attack the OP, that shit doesnt really help the rest of us that want to learn and evolve this character or the community.

And its not like Z hasnt put in work.. his videos and research proves that hes damn well trying. Most every who has picked up takeda and put in hours - no not a few matches here and there but real HOURS logged into matches and practice mode can honestly say that, at first glance, he looks solid but there are noticeable design flaws with him that range though NOVICE - ADVANCED - & HIGH LEVEL play


i mean some matches i honestly have a more fun time losing with other characters than i have winning with Takeda. Most people would say well use that other character or well thats just the way it is - Well it might be but who are you to say that someone cant fight or put up the effort to change that ... Maybe NRS thinks that Takeda is just fine and Z doesnt know what hes talking about.. but then again maybe not, and maybe Z is pushing in the right direction. Who knows? Cant tell if nobody brings it up.. Yeah you might not like the tone that and aggressiveness Z uses but that a personal issue... maybe he came of a bit strong and could tone it down at times - yes - but when it seems like everyone is breaking your balls about something your passionate about, and more than half of the people laying into what you say havent even researched what points youre trying to make, i bet it would even put you in the same defensive attitude..

so lets put it this way
yes the games brand new but his wake ups are not gonna get any better with time- His Ex armor is not going to change and his frame data isnt going to change just with time.
if you dont think he has problems then help us the hell out and advise us how to better utilize what strengths you think he has that we obviously have not uncovered.. REALLY help us.. i mean i bet half this community would rather have answers to this stuff and ADAPT now than to wait and pray for a BUFF. i would. tell us what and why you feel he doesnt need help cause right now:

His wake up game is terrible- hands down terrible - what can you contribute to help us with this?
Yeah he shoudlnt be great and mid range and up close but there's no reason he shouldnt have a viable way to wake up. - what can you suggest?
Getting stuck in the corner 75% of the time we have to MB get out but even then Takedas armor is different so we get snuffed out of a MB move before armor activates. for someone whos so heavily dependent on meter- this becomes a crucial waste- can you help us with a better option to save meter and get out?
When you play against a takeda - what are the things that you lose to? what do you NOT have answer for? What punishes are you losing to in block @ 8-10 frames?
If your gonna fight that takeda has zero flaws then tell us why ...



oh and btw - ive also picked up CM Subzero... so ... yeah, theres that too.

Normals with near full screen hitboxes (that also anti air), a teleport and a great runaway game... what is bad about this character? Seriously. Because with D'Vorah (venomous) I can't do shit. Might as well pick him up myself, because I can never reach him. Any tips?

alkipot said:

Normals with near full screen hitboxes (that also anti air), a teleport and a great runaway game... what is bad about this character? Seriously. Because with D'Vorah (venomous) I can't do shit. Might as well pick him up myself, because I can never reach him. Any tips?

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You have crazy chip damage and pressure. You can wreck him. His only armored wake up is bf2 and that doesn't even armor all the time. Doesn't have very good lows or OH at least in Shirai Ryu.

Why the fuck can't people understand that not everybody needs to be top tier.

Takeda has weaknesses, sure. So does Quan Chi. Let's buff his oki game as well, shall we?

Seriously, with respect to Zyphox, but every time a thread like this pops up, it's like the character discussed is the fucking Sheeva of MK X. Which is doubly frustrating considering that Shinnok is this game's Sheeva. Really, you'd think with all the complaints that Takeda's only pro is that he has a nice P2 outfit colour.

You can't apply any pressure when his normals severely outrange yours. You can literally just jump back and press buttons and D'Vorah (venomous) can't do anything about it. Jump in with D'Vorah? Ground normals hit you out or that jump diagonal lash thing does. Stay on the ground? Normals into kunai, repeat. Recovers before she can act. Use D'Vorah's puddle? Not fast enough. Get hit out it it, normals into kunai, repeat. I seriously want to know what is so bad about this character, when a solid character can't even reach him? I hope people aren't downplaying this guy, because it seems so in this thread.

alkipot said:

Normals with near full screen hitboxes (that also anti air), a teleport and a great runaway game... what is bad about this character? Seriously. Because with D'Vorah (venomous) I can't do shit. Might as well pick him up myself, because I can never reach him. Any tips?

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Tried D'Vorah- that was def not for me- Takedas dos have his perks and his normals have good reach but really they are hella slow on start up . teleport is very unsafe on block and his runaway game is really not that good ..
but if youre talking about the D'vorah Takeda match up - man once she gets in on him shes so fast ..

Agilaz said:

Why the fuck can't people understand that not everybody needs to be top tier.

Takeda has weaknesses, sure. So does Quan Chi. Let's buff his oki game as well, shall we?

Seriously, with respect to Zyphox, but every time a thread like this pops up, it's like the character discussed is the fucking Sheeva of MK X. Which is doubly frustrating considering that Shinnok is this game's Sheeva. Really, you'd think with all the complaints that Takeda's only pro is that he has a nice P2 outfit colour.

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most are not saying i need him to be top tier- hell i dont even care about tier lists myself...but there are things that just dont make sense to certain variations.-Takeda is pretty much addicted to having to use meter.. but he has pretty much zero wake up game (Ronin prob has a bit better) so most of the time we have to MB to attempt to escape.. But its super easy to snuff out his armor because it hesitates or starts late .. Give his armor normal properties like everyone else and that could pretty much solve 75% or his flaw .

and for his normals - instead of jumping it - i have had people block and run half screen into a punish.. yeah if you jump im gonna attempt swat you down- but the hit box is at the forward of the whip.. so - if i dont hit you right , your jump can just pass right though my whips.. plus its something i fully have to commit to cause once again- super unsafe to just throw it out there.

for pressure- if you say you cant apply pressure to takeda then im def playing him wrong cause thats all i lose to lol .. L.Kang pressure Cassie Cage pressure. D'Vorah pressure, Kung jin Pressure.. etc once they get in and start the pressure its def a task to go back to maintaining adequate space

and for his oki game- - pretty much a b21 50/50(ish?) is what i to resort to .. anything else and i have to spend the entire match condition for them - example- an unexpected b3.. cause if i b3 and commit into bf1 and its blocked then im opened up cause you cant really HC into this (least not to my knowledge) or i can ex kunai but still, its the same thing along the lines of committing of the low start..
BUT- if i b21 and you block both those you can jump or Armor out pretty much what ever i have coming next. And another fact.. you can jump through my b21 on wakeup also.. ask me how i know, lol.. many advanced players have througly punished me for this.. But still its a very good move for oki that i cant deny. .

Plus theres a reason Taekdas alwasy throwing Kunai - i really dont see how anyone who doesnt Kunai Cancels could make this advance in lvl

if i have missed anything or mistyped something please let me know and ill correct it- im at work and im trying to burn through typing this as fast as i can lol.

but Really.. im not being sarcastic when i say this.. please put work in with him and please get back to us with what you have found out for these problems if you truly believe if you think we are trying to pull the wool over your eyes or we are down playing him.. ...ive been testing other cast with these problems and there is only like 2-3 other people that the wake up game is almost as bad- but - with those people in my opinion- they still have 2+ options for wakeup and normal acting armor . once again Id honestly rather have the community find something soon then waiting on buffs or changes.

And even though top players are at no way the end all be all for choosing whos trash and whos not - listen to the reasons why most of them wont use or have dropped Takeda so far.. All them say the same type of information that is typed in this thread.. Yes at mid screen takeda potential is good.. but that shouldn't overshadow the flaws that he has which need attention.

alkipot said:

You can't apply any pressure when his normals severely outrange yours. You can literally just jump back and press buttons and D'Vorah (venomous) can't do anything about it. Jump in with D'Vorah? Ground normals hit you out or that jump diagonal lash thing does. Stay on the ground? Normals into kunai, repeat. Recovers before she can act. Use D'Vorah's puddle? Not fast enough. Get hit out it it, normals into kunai, repeat. I seriously want to know what is so bad about this character, when a solid character can't even reach him? I hope people aren't downplaying this guy, because it seems so in this thread.

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well it depends on the match-up... Shirai Ryu might do fine vs. D'vorah but take for example Jax or LK who can get in easier than other chars and have great rushdown, then it becomes rough for Takeda. He's still a good character don't get me wrong but I think the point of this thread was to show everyone the problems he has and how to fight him. I'd rather beat someone knowing that I outplayed them and not because "they didn't know the MU". Also as much as people tend to hate on @Zyphox people forget that he plays with some of the best players in the world, so I think he has some merit in what he says.

I'll take all the info I can get, and I'll also go into training mode with Takeda and see what I find. Just seems like a very bad match for D'Vorah midscreen atm. Appreciate the assistance, Takeda forums.

alkipot said:

I'll take all the info I can get, and I'll also go into training mode with Takeda and see what I find. Just seems like a very bad match for D'Vorah midscreen atm. Appreciate the assistance, Takeda forums.

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Look for footage of Ducky at BLTB and you'll see how D'Vorah is able to enfore her agenda even at midscreen.

Zyphox said:

OMG what do we have here? is it Zyphox Crying about Takeda again?

Why yes it is, and to be 100% honest IDGAF what you, yes you reading this right now, think or what your opinion is on takeda. IF YOU DO NOT MAIN TAKEDA please do us all a favor and STFU when it comes to how he should be played or knowing of the struggle of fighting against a competent opponent that knows the MU/how to blow you up.

HERE ARE THE FACT PEOPLE OF TYM!!!
1. Takeda is the slowest character in the game, in terms of normals and specials.
2. the Compensation is that he has 1-2 moves that are strings that have range in two of his variations, that includes B21 in both Shirai Ryu and Lasher and Lasher has a df1 poke plus whip trip (1/2 screen punishable low option).
3. Shirai Ryu has the worst wakes up next to Rich Homie Quan Chi Chi.
4. every special move besides Kunai is punishable on block and whiff across all variations except MB blade call.
5. EVERYTHING BESIDES B11 KUNAI IS INTERRUPTABLE!!!! that means every Character that has a Forward Advancing Armored special move (which most of the cast does) can blow takeda up if he ever commits to a b2 in Shirai Ryu Variation by option select Armor through the string. which means still for those of you who do not get it, you can mash armor through any part of my string and you will beat me out in EVERY situation as showcased in the video below.

Those are the facts, if its supposed to be so hard for people to get in on takeda AND THAT IS THE REASON WHY HE IS SHIT UP CLOSE, THEN WHY THE FUCK CAN YOU JUST ARMOR THROUGH MY "GODLIKE" STRING AND GET IN EASILY? sorry for the caps, but it doesn't make any sense, i now realize that giving him faster normals will do nothing for shirai ryu and lasher variations, and would only help out ronin be lop sided and rushdown oriented instead of any kind of set up based variation.

Takeda has a Fundamental Flaw in his gameplay, everything he does at most ranges are unsafe, thats like making dhalsim's low Forward or whatever it is unsafe on block and punishable by most of the cast, what would be the point of throwing out such a slow move like that with range when you can just be punished for it. its not like you can't see it coming.

i'm not sure what they could fix to address this issue, but takeda is all risk/Slight reward. what is takeda supposed to do? play footsies at sweep distance? HA!!

Now just for a disclaimer: I AM IN NO WAY BLAMING LOSES OR ANYTHING ON ME USING TAKEDA!!! because at this point there are still many people who do not know the MU, but what will happen once they do? he will be ASS tier. Takeda has to work twice as hard to keep people out in this game by throwing out punishable shit and taking risk.

One more disclaimer: I REALIZE YOU CAN CANCEL B21 WITH TELE CANCEL, still is no substitute for the move because once you force me into canceling my string it opens up options for you to get in since every cancel is - frames and punishable by moves like reptiles slide.

i'm already looking at future mains just incase they do not buff/fix takeda, sorry i wanted to be a character loyalist in this game but its hard when your character has gaping holes like takeda does.

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At least his specials aren't punishable on hit.

Mileena says hi.

But yeah, he's kinda bad.

alkipot said:

I'll take all the info I can get, and I'll also go into training mode with Takeda and see what I find. Just seems like a very bad match for D'Vorah midscreen atm. Appreciate the assistance, Takeda forums.

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Half the time you can preemptively jump in on his B21 range. Block high in general. With the exception of kunai you can get full punishes on every other of his specials. Once you knock him down he's basically a baby calf. He can't get up.