Stamina "Cool Down" on Combo Breakers - Is it too Long?

Lol personally I'm just glad I can combo break at all really, coming from KoF there were instances where I would've given my left kidney just for a chance to get out of an HD combo..

In this game the combo break feels more like a reset button to the moment before you got hit as opposed to a momentum shifter. Now if they were baitable like Bursts in GG/BB/SG that would be a different story, but seeing as they're guaranteed then having a penalty for using them seems fair imo.

TrulyAmiracle said:

Lol personally I'm just glad I can combo break at all really, coming from KoF there were instances where I would've given my left kidney just for a chance to get out of an HD combo..

In this game the combo break feels more like a reset button to the moment before you got hit as opposed to a momentum shifter. Now if they were baitable like Bursts in GG/BB/SG that would be a different story, but seeing as they're guaranteed then having a penalty for using them seems fair imo.

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Man if this game had burst bait, the reads would be amazing. Not to mention burst safe combos would be a thing as well.

TopTierHarley said:

Man if this game had burst bait, the reads would be amazing. Not to mention burst safe combos would be a thing as well.

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Those what ifs though.
Okay, make my Displacer play like Slayer and we can proceed to discuss baitable breakers

I actually like the way it is now. When I block a punishable move I want my punish to hurt. If my opponent gets to break out of the combo I used to punish I like knowing that they gave up 2 bars and a longer recovery on their stamina to do so. Most of the time someone breaks a combo they should be featured on that show "I Shouldn't be Alive", so I believe there should be a cost and a penalty for breaking. Also for the few that get run in on after breaking - If you know they're going to run at you after every breaker just find a way to stop them, throw out a normal or special and let them think about running at u again

I really find it annoying when playing as Cassie, because she needs run to do pretty much any of her combos. So I can't combo for 4 seconds after a break, which to me is a bit excessive.

Premonitionist said:

I actually like the way it is now. When I block a punishable move I want my punish to hurt. If my opponent gets to break out of the combo I used to punish I like knowing that they gave up 2 bars and a longer recovery on their stamina to do so. Most of the time someone breaks a combo they should be featured on that show "I Shouldn't be Alive", so I believe there should be a cost and a penalty for breaking. Also for the few that get run in on after breaking - If you know they're going to run at you after every breaker just find a way to stop them, throw out a normal or special and let them think about running at u again

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What if you need stamina to run cancel in order for your punish to hurt? You break, opponent does something punishable, your punish is minimized because you broke and you can't fully punish them. This is a situation that not every character encounters..

The "issue" here is that the penalty that's intended to be universal has character specific severity.

Less stamina dependent characters have a distinct advantage with the current breaking mechanics on both sides of the coin. Stamina dependency is just another thing to be aware of when you look at how good or viable a character is.

The thing is, if you are a character that relies heavily on stamina, either you have to risk not breaking or break and play defensive until you get the stamina back. I voted yes in the poll just because it would benefit my character for sure but I dont think the penalties are too much of a problem, especially cause some of these characters who rely on stamina are already very good/possibly top tier.

I think that the break should cost 1 bar of stamina instead of 2. I say this as a Cage main and A-List Cage is very reliant on stamina. Seeing as I need to do a run cancel to be able to confirm off Cage's F3, his main footsie tool, I feel having no stamina left and the huge cooldown to be very crippling after I have to use a breaker. This means I can't get any offense started until I have enough stamina to do at least one run cancel and can't reliably punish a lot of moves that create distance between the opponent or when I need a move that hits mid to punish, as I can't confirm if I mistime the punish and commit to the nutpunch I get blown up.

At first I thought this was a cool mechanic but after playing for a few weeks I definitely feel it hurts some characters a LOT more than others.

EDIT: After reading @HeroesNZ's post I guess I agree it isn't that bad, it just adds a new dimension to how good/bad a character is. Better to view it this way than get salty cause character A isn't as good as character B in just 1 aspect.

Sultani said:

What if you need stamina to run cancel in order for your punish to hurt? You break, opponent does something punishable, your punish is minimized because you broke and you can't fully punish them. This is a situation that not every character encounters..

The "issue" here is that the penalty that's intended to be universal has character specific severity.

Less stamina dependent characters have a distinct advantage with the current breaking mechanics on both sides of the coin. Stamina dependency is just another thing to be aware of when you look at how good or viable a character is.

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Well if we're going to look at it like this then that means that characters that only get good damage with meter are also at a distinct disadvantage after breaking. The combo breaking mechanic is universal but I don't think it was intended to be universally equal. It would be impossible to make it not character specific unless it didn't cost meter or a stamina penalty. Some characters are just going to have less of a disadvantage after breaking than others, that's just the way it is.

I think its a good mechanic but I do think characters do too much damage. I mean 50/50 40% is kind of ridiculous, its better just to have everyone does less damage

Some characters with forward advancing normals can close some distance after they break, like Cassie. She can do b1 or f2 to get a little closer after she uses a breaker.

A person's perspective on this is greatly influenced by the characters they play. I play Scorpion - a character in which run cancels are a pretty pivotal part of his pressure game. I'd imagine Cassie players would also view the cooldown as too long because her BnBs pretty much go out the window after a break.

I guess it just adds another layer to how good a character can be. Instead of just characters with great meter-building being better off than others when it comes to breaking combos, it'll be characters who aren't extremely reliant on stamina as well.

Honestly, I don't really mind the cooldown. I used to play SF/IGAU a lot before MKX - games where you obviously can't break combos/can only break once. Unless the combo's going to kill me, I'm used to just taking the damage. But I don't know how I feel about the fact that if you break a combo the opponent can just run up and hit you with another 50/50.

If I had to vote, however, I'd say reduce it to the same amount of cooldown as Scorpion when he cancels his teleport.

Honestly the problem with players is that they easily get desperate and flustered. Just block lol.

Everytime someone breaks, I assume they're gonna jump and I'm right about 80% of the time. They want to get out and they have no other options to back up or move forward, so they'll jump out of the corner (which is the usual spot of desperation they'd break in as they lose everything there lol.)

Build up a solid defense. It would help you not get into a situation where you would have to break and if you did have to break, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Tony at Home said:

By this logic, breakers shouldn't exist at all, and there shouldn't be any meter gain at all from being kombo'd.

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ideally it's the way i would have it, but since that ship has already sailed there's no sense trying to change it

I just think if you're getting a get out of jail card for a combo that could end the game, it should be as painful in other ways as the lost life would be

you guys realize that you -don't- have to break, right? and that a lot of other fighting games don't even have a breaker?

the fact that you want to be completely safe AND be able to turn around and have everything after breaking something is a little silly to me. you just stopped your opponent from doing most likely at least 30% damage to you. the penalty is 2 bars of EX meter and your stamina with a cooldown period. You just got smacked and then interrupted getting punished or hit. The stamina is an important thing to have taken away because it means that you can't backdash for a time, you can't use interractables, nothing like that. so it means that you really have to think for the next few seconds.

i'm noticing that people are really hung up on the fact that characters with run cancel combos are more negatively impacted by this than not but, what about the alternatives? you could not break, you could just take the damage. chances are that you aren't going to die from the combo. or when you break you could play a counterpoke game and punish an attempt to take advantage of your low stamina.

cassie for example without the run gets something like 15% midscreen? but how is that bad when you just interrupted a 30% or more combo? so you aren't maximizing your damage immediately after breaker, that does not mean the match still has not been swung into your favor. you just effectively said "stop, it's my turn" by breaking. especially with cassie where B12 is such a great string.

my point is that the pros greatly outweigh the cons and that some characters don't use run cancels and stuff like that for combos is just a fact of the game. characters are different. it feels much more like a deep game with having breaker having different effects on different characters instead of MK9 where it's just free, basically. it becomes another thing you have to think about, and thinking is the whole point

So I timed the cooldown.

7.5 seconds before you build your first bar of stamina back

8.5 before you have 2 bars.

I used a stop watch timer, not the in game clock.

Thoughts?

And yes, you do seem to be frozen there standing for a second as well, I never noticed that before.

Jimmypotato said:

So I timed the cooldown.

7.5 seconds before you build your first bar of stamina back

8.5 before you have 2 bars.

I used a stop watch timer, not the in game clock.

Thoughts?

And yes, you do seem to be frozen there standing for a second as well, I never noticed that before.

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I think it's brilliant. Unless your absolutely sure that your going to win that round or have to use it your going to hold onto that meter rather than use it stop their combo. I mean the person has already gone through the effort of opening you up and you stopped all their momentum and opportunites for a vortex or oki or whatever follow up they had also. I absolutely think you deserve to lose your stamina for breaking and that length of time is long enough to make you think whether it is neccesary to use or if your better off taking the risk and saving your meter.

I said it before and i'll say it again, the addition of the stamina mechanic has improved the game a lot in my opinion. The amount of awareness a player has to have has increased the depth of this game a lot. I like the cooldown, watching kabal get all those breakers and use them over and over was dumb. Imagine if kabal had to think about if he really needed to break...

I love having breaker. In marvel you got touched and you die. Its over. The you need to block incoming. I do not mind wasting my stamina. it makes sense. I just block and wait it out. When im playing jax if i breaker i cannot doing any real midscreen combos. I just deal with it. The cool down is fine. Just have to play defensive until you get it back

Lowering the recovery time would be nice considering the character I play, so I voted yes, but I'll try to be more fair here. I don't think lowering the recory time by a second or so would make breaking anywhere near as easy of a choice as it was in mk9, since a lot of characters need stamina to do significant things. Reducing stamina recovery by a bit still gives whoever is on the offensive tons of time to open their opponent up again, without having to worry about a big combo punish or pressure from a lot of characters. I've gotten used to the current breaker system by trying to keep them out with pokes, punishes, blocking well, etc but the stamina recovery still feels slightly too long. Even lowering it by .5 seconds might be just right.

I won't be upset at all if it doesn't change, hell I've had a lot of fun discovering ways to work with it, but like I said a second or so removed from the recovery time would be nice.

leeksquad said:

cassie for example without the run gets something like 15% midscreen? but how is that bad when you just interrupted a 30% or more combo?

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It doesn't change the fact that her damage is weakened more than some other character's. The question is, if that's warranted to reduce her damage specifically, but not of some another character.

Cassie seems pretty strong otherwise, but she isn't the only character with run combos.

I don't feel like "Your opponent has gone through the effort of opening you up" in this game is really a factor.

It's by far the easiest MK to open someone up in. Most characters are 50/50 machines. When you break, you are most likely going to get stuck into another 50/50 loop.

Even removing the weird pause if you break would help. I just hate being literally trapped after a breaker.

TakeAChance said:

I don't feel like "Your opponent has gone through the effort of opening you up" in this game is really a factor.

It's by far the easiest MK to open someone up in. Most characters are 50/50 machines. When you break, you are most likely going to get stuck into another 50/50 loop.

Even removing the weird pause if you break would help. I just hate being literally trapped after a breaker.

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Seems very ironic doesn't it? Combo Breakers damn-near cost you rounds in this game.

In MK9 it was BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK.

RelentlessOhio said:

In MK9 it was BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK.

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It's still almost like that in some matchups, it's just that this early in the game's life people tend to drop a lot of combos so breaking doesn't do much for that price (doesn't help that not everyone has MK9 damage midscreen either) , and also people play more than a few characters that shit a bar after another and has every tool devs could think of.

Barrogh said:

It's still almost like that, it's just that this early in the game's life people play more than a few characters that shit a bar after another and has every tool devs could think of.

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That's not what I was saying. MK9 didn't have a run mechanic like MKX does. Running is crucial in this game.

So if you break and don't have Stamina for 7+ seconds, that's a long fucking time. Some characters vitally need stamina for combos and setups.

Imo being punished for breaking a combo because you got opened up is a good thing. I think people should be happy that they can actually break a combo in the first place.

Why do you need your stamina after a breaker? To press the advantage after breaking a combo for a knockdown? To retreat further after getting out of a bad situation at the cost of meter? You get into a bad situation from mistakes on your part. You shouldn't be able to just correct mistakes with 2 bars of meter. It makes perfect sense for your movement to be limited after completely stopping your opponents momentum just because you had 2 bars.