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Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

Do you think NRS patching strategy is much better this time?

  • Yes

    Votes: 74 60.2%
  • No

    Votes: 36 29.3%
  • In between overeall

    Votes: 13 10.6%

  • Total voters
    123

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I wasn't arguing with you. I just pointed out your point about Hisakos "infinite" which can only happen AFTER you have been beaten. It's an Ultra inifinite...it's not in anyway gamebreaking.

After that, it was just a general response. I'm kind of flattered that you read that all as if I was talking to only you tho. Tiers absolutely exist in fighting games, but right now as it stands, a lot of characters are REALLY lacking. The gap between S+ and A seems like the largest gap I've seen in a long time. In most games that gap is not that large. I am not spreading doom and gloom, this game is going to change drastically by October. That I'm sure of. It just saddens me that you can go through the roster and pick a handful of really interesting characters (Kotal, Johnny, Kitana, Mileena, Kenshi, Shinnok) and just shudder at their tools. It's not that they don't have any, it's that they literally don't make sense or don't mesh with their OTHER tools. Hell, those are just the characters I've personally touched too.
Again, i didn't say it was. I used it as an example to illustrate that glitches and infinites are not exclusive to NRS. Also, in the original post that no one read but comments on anyway, i presented the caveat that i had found that and an infinite Omen had on Aganos after a very brief Google search. Nothing too in depth.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
So because you don't know how to properly punish it, its a great mix up and she will be a problem? You have just demonstrated why you should never listen to the masses when they cry for nerfs or buffs. Instead of arguing about patches, take the time to learn the game.
You really don't know what being facetious actually means. Wow.
 
I think kung jin needs a 5f startup safe teleport launcher and his high damage off safe mixups into safe 50/50s should be meterless.

People would probably still say "learn the game scrub."
 

Shania Twain

That Don't Impress Me Much
I wasn't arguing with you. I just pointed out your point about Hisakos "infinite" which can only happen AFTER you have been beaten. It's an Ultra inifinite...it's not in anyway gamebreaking.

After that, it was just a general response. I'm kind of flattered that you read that all as if I was talking to only you tho. Tiers absolutely exist in fighting games, but right now as it stands, a lot of characters are REALLY lacking. The gap between S+ and A seems like the largest gap I've seen in a long time. In most games that gap is not that large. I am not spreading doom and gloom, this game is going to change drastically by October. That I'm sure of. It just saddens me that you can go through the roster and pick a handful of really interesting characters (Kotal, Johnny, Kitana, Mileena, Kenshi, Shinnok) and just shudder at their tools. It's not that they don't have any, it's that they literally don't make sense or don't mesh with their OTHER tools. Hell, those are just the characters I've personally touched too.
If you notice though...Shinnok has an insanely damaging x-ray if combo'd in. It can do nearly 47 percent. Kitana can also combo in an x-ray with high damage. so on the flipside they can get revenge damage and catch up fast. People also are not used to fighting against some of these characters so their strategy has to be changed. I do really think Kotal and Mileena need some kind of buff. with Mileena she largely can't do anything because almost all her moves are easily punishable. Kitana at least has a small window of time where the opponent can punish. i've been seeing a lot more Mileenas lately, though. I also see a fair amount of really good Reptiles (i know wasn't mentioned but wanted to point it out). I think a lot of characters just suffer from being boring to play or unentertaining to watch. I think Cassie Cage falls into this category. that doesn't mean her combos aren't good or anything but other than her selfie fatality and x-ray she is IMO a boring match up. plus...her alt is just beyond stupid. I know want they are going for but it resembles a workout outfit for early 90s x-men dazzler. I thin of her worout pants were pants and not capris then I'd be okay. I digress. All I know is that everybody and their mom seems to pick Sub-Zero and Scorpion and largely because of course they are the poster childs for the game probably and in pop culture the most popular and IMO their moves and kombos are pretty simple to learn as they should be. I will say this though. many of these characters people want nerfs for may or may not be needed ....they are just getting so much attention cuz they are over played. These characters and their kombos tough can be learned in minutes. It doesn't take an intense training lab to learn them which is a stark contrast to other characters even returning ones. I just wish more people would do Scorpion's second fatality instead of the heart one. the post mortem head stab is just awesome. Sub-Zero also has great Brutalities. as far as other characters though I can't speak much of. I feel like a good almost half the roster never get used really. Kitana may be in that batch cuz I use her often and rarely encounter a mirror match. I probably see Mileena more. But this is of course just what I've seen and noticed, not gospel. I haven't gone to any tournaments or casual meetings mainly cuz they are too far away and/or I have to work so I don't know who those people are picking.
 
I wonder if KJ would get as much hate if he were pallete swapped with a character that wasn't stupid. Like, if he were rain or smoke or somthing, but was functiinally the same. Being a stupid ass character to begin with probably doesnt help the hate
 

Jb879212

40 Percent Punish
I believe the game for the most part is fairly balanced. There are a lot of characters with a lot of tools that can handle the majority of the cast given the variations. If anything I feel like there are characters that require slight buffs in order to remain competitive. Kotal Kahn, Jax, Mileena, Kitana, are the characters that come to mind. And they don't even need huge buffs, just little things in their gameplay that would make them more competitively viable in the cast. Just my opinion though
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
No, she's more than just solid. If Kung Jin and SubZero and others are hit with the nerf bat, she will take their place.

Wasp cancels. Full screen 50/50s. Safe, long range pokes. Nearly impossible to zone with great footsies and space control. Yours wasn't the only one ive fought.

No one believes me. But you will all see.
I believe you lol

Edit: I am interested in what you think her fullscreen 50/50 is, because that is news to me
 

Jb879212

40 Percent Punish
I wonder if KJ would get as much hate if he were pallete swapped with a character that wasn't stupid. Like, if he were rain or smoke or somthing, but was functiinally the same. Being a stupid ass character to begin with probably doesnt help the hate
Nah there's definitely just as much hate on Kung Lao, Scorp, Sub-Zero, and the like
 

Ninj

Where art thou, MKX Skarlet?
Again, i didn't say it was. I used it as an example to illustrate that glitches and infinites are not exclusive to NRS. Also, in the original post that no one read but comments on anyway, i presented the caveat that i had found that and an infinite Omen had on Aganos after a very brief Google search. Nothing too in depth.
Yes glitches, mistakes, etc. are in everything everywhere. Here's my point:

I label NRS as a producer of a casual fighting game because of the way they approach balancing their games. Balance changes historically have been to completely nerf characters into the ground to be unusable in a tournament setting (Injustice Scorpion, MK9 Sub Zero and Scorpion, MKX: TBD). They lack a sense of finesse and it shows. (No, I'm not listing all instances of poor patches - there are too many, I don't remember all of them, and don't care enough to go track them down. But we all lived through it and the point I'm making is accurate).

On another point that was excellently posted is that character tools in MKX don't generally synergize with each other. This backs up my claim about NRS being more interested in selling to more casual players through flash and the 'wow' factor (OH COOOOL [insert favorite character] CAN DO [insert special move]!!! SWEET!). They're all just moves that the dev team thought would be cool...and that's it.

Ed Boon has said over and over they want to top their previous game, and you know he means theatrically. Look at the netcode. You want to know how much NRS listens to us? I can't imagine how many posts there were about how the netcode holds back the tournament scene and here we are yet again without rollback netcode. That's a casual mentality - most people (non-TYM people) do not care at all about frame data. At all. They blame lag when they whiff or gets stuffed, get angry for a minute, then keep playing. That's who NRS appeals to. Not people who say "Holy shit, he just punished a 5 frame window, that was good play."

As for KI...I love it.

The Omen "infinite" is Omen chaining together throws. On normal sized characters, even Glacius, this isn't possible in the corner, but yes - Omen gets an almost-kindof 50/50 off his throw in the corner vs Aganos. Hardly the gamebreaking infinite you clearly want it to be since Aganos's standing LP is fast so even if Omen tries to attack instead of throw again he can get stuffed.

As others pointed out, the Hisako ultra-infinite has no bearing on gameplay or balance. And has been patched.

So what it comes down to is that when a new patch comes out (like today, for KI - Cinder now playable) there will likely be some things that need to be patched. I know that Iron Galaxy will fix what needs fixing in a short time and that they are often already aware of issues before players find them. They take their game seriously and their internal QA/balancing process reflects that.

Who knows how long it'll take for Kitana's infinite to be removed.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
6 Months is exactly the reason why NRS should not rush, wait till most of the tech is found by then and make a judgement call on who actually needs buffs- and if a character is actually too powerful. If NRS actually was planning on patching this game after 6 months then your argument would have more merit, otherwise it just turns into Injustice where Batgirl, MMH, and Aquaman, or the top 5 in MK9 which dominated their respective games because we dont properly identify what needs proper buffing and nerfing.
But waiting kills the scene faster than not when everyone knows what is broke and it doesn't get fixed. We've seen it happen. Superman and Black Adam almost killed Injustice.

These are brand new games with brand new mechanics that NRS is putting out. MK9, Injustice and MKX are the equivalent of Street Fighter II: World Warrior, X-Men: Children of the Atom and whatever the first version was of 3S. Those games were not tournament ready and incredibly broken. They would not have made Evo by a long shot. NRS does their best making their games as tournament ready as they can and their games make it to Evo every year. They don't get enough credit for that when you think about it.

So asking them to limit their ability to fix things they believe are problems seems incredibly counter-productive to me. That's like saying, 'World Warrior Guile might be fine, we just need to learn the matchup'. Lawl
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Yes glitches, mistakes, etc. are in everything everywhere. Here's my point:

I label NRS as a producer of a casual fighting game because of the way they approach balancing their games. Balance changes historically have been to completely nerf characters into the ground to be unusable in a tournament setting (Injustice Scorpion, MK9 Sub Zero and Scorpion, MKX: TBD). They lack a sense of finesse and it shows. (No, I'm not listing all instances of poor patches - there are too many, I don't remember all of them, and don't care enough to go track them down. But we all lived through it and the point I'm making is accurate).

On another point that was excellently posted is that character tools in MKX don't generally synergize with each other. This backs up my claim about NRS being more interested in selling to more casual players through flash and the 'wow' factor (OH COOOOL [insert favorite character] CAN DO [insert special move]!!! SWEET!). They're all just moves that the dev team thought would be cool...and that's it.

Ed Boon has said over and over they want to top their previous game, and you know he means theatrically. Look at the netcode. You want to know how much NRS listens to us? I can't imagine how many posts there were about how the netcode holds back the tournament scene and here we are yet again without rollback netcode. That's a casual mentality - most people (non-TYM people) do not care at all about frame data. At all. They blame lag when they whiff or gets stuffed, get angry for a minute, then keep playing. That's who NRS appeals to. Not people who say "Holy shit, he just punished a 5 frame window, that was good play."

As for KI...I love it.

The Omen "infinite" is Omen chaining together throws. On normal sized characters, even Glacius, this isn't possible in the corner, but yes - Omen gets an almost-kindof 50/50 off his throw in the corner vs Aganos. Hardly the gamebreaking infinite you clearly want it to be since Aganos's standing LP is fast so even if Omen tries to attack instead of throw again he can get stuffed.

As others pointed out, the Hisako ultra-infinite has no bearing on gameplay or balance. And has been patched.

So what it comes down to is that when a new patch comes out (like today, for KI - Cinder now playable) there will likely be some things that need to be patched. I know that Iron Galaxy will fix what needs fixing in a short time and that they are often already aware of issues before players find them. They take their game seriously and their internal QA/balancing process reflects that.

Who knows how long it'll take for Kitana's infinite to be removed.
The problem i have with your argument is several fold:

First of all, MK9 Balance patches weren't perfect. That's true. But they did a LOT in making the game viable at high level. That there were tiers at the end of MK9's life is common to fighting games.

If you look at Injustice's patch notes, they were largely positive. Yes, you had problems like over nerfing Scorpion, but you also had great additions to the game, such as MB B3 taking half damage from interactables. So to say that NRS has no idea what they're doing with patches is factually incorrect. This very thread outlines the positives of Injustice patches over the negatives. There was no character that was completely unbeatable by the end of the game's life.

The next problem i have with your argument besides the blatant generalizations and re-hashing of false narratives is that this attitude of, "LOL, MK IS CASUAL BECAUSE FATALITIES" is that it is a huge, huge slap in the face to every player that travels for this game, every person who produces content like podcasts or guides or shows for the game, tournament organizers for the game, players who lab and practice and grind match ups, and local scenes who meet and traib offline for the game.

This condescending attitude of, "LOL CASUAL CAUSE FATALITIES," takes a massive dump on everyone who takes the game seriously.

You don't have to like the game. That's fine. But to make the statements you have and implying that MK X is not a tournament game is not okay because it simply isn't factually true.

EDIT: Obviously, LOL CASUAL CAUSE FATALITIES is facetiousness. That is not literally your talking point. You have grievances with how NRS balances and patches, which i disagree with.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
No one is against patches. I don't understand why this straw man argument keeps coming up. When we say the game was patched too much in a short amount of time and not long after the game was released, that's not us simply saying "the game had too many patches". Because in MK9 and Injustice's case, more patches were needed after NRS stopped patching them.

The argument is "make sure the patch is warranted". When it comes to glitches or infinites, these aren't subjective, they objectively make the game bad, or rather the game would be better off without them. So them patching out these types of things are a non issue.

The problem is when balance changes start happening before the game is fully fleshed out. This is when characters get buffed and nerfed unnecessarily. That's not to say it's impossible to get it right when you do balance changes early, but you're not maximizing your chances of actually getting it right. And then there's been a trend of doing balance changes not only early but also often. It's much better for the game if you spread the balance changes out so you can make the best decisions possible instead of doing things based on knee jerk reactions.

I had a lot more typed out and a lot more to say, but I feel this is enough for now. Also, no one should be discouraging balance discussion. But what I will discourage is spreading ignorance in the name of "balance discussion".
 

Jeremy KO

*insert kotal kahn gibberish here*
I'm cool with patches if they do like 95% buffs and 5% nerfs. I'd rather have the whole cast godlike rather than the current higher tiers being "normalized".
 

d3v

SRK
Truth is, Ultra's first balance patch was as fast as anything in IGAU.

In addition, patching xTekken too late ultimately killed the game.
And Ultras first balance patch actually added problems.

And XTekken wasn't killed because it was patched too late. That's too simple an explanation on something that happened due to a combination of reasons, ranging from the whole on-disc DLC debacle, to the fact that EVO insisted on running it as a double game.
 
I'm cool with patches if they do like 95% buffs and 5% nerfs. I'd rather have the whole cast godlike rather than the current higher tiers being "normalized".
That's a terrible way to balance. If there are just a few characters that are better than the others and you decide to buff the rest of the cast instead of nerfing the few then you affect every single matchup in the game on top of making a comparatively colossal number of changes and more changes mean more chances of royally fucking up. So it's better to make as few changes as possible to make the game balanced. Also the whole "buffs good, nerfs bad" mentality is just stupid since balance is relative and buffing everyone equally doesn't make them better since they'd all be just as good compared to each other as they were before.
 

Sonho

POTH makes me question my sexuallity
If @Rude

The deeper I go down the MKX rabbit hole, the larger the tier gaps seem to be. As it stands right now, a lot of characters are VERY badly outclassed.

It's why we see so many Jin's, Quans,
Many Quan's? where are these Quans? Is it based on NWM or online? Because i havent seen that many Quans around at all, not online and in NWM i only saw 2 (didnt see 100% of the streams) and yes they placed top 8 both em of, doesnt make him broken/op. Cant create a tierlist from 1 major tournament..
I do agree that maybe a tweak is in hand, but if you actually take some time and watch a player that know what Quan's weakness is, such as F0xy Grandpa from UK who plays Ketchup alot and you will see that Quan is not all willynilly. A great character but not broken/op. Great zoning and good 50/50. No wakeup/get off me move, no safe 50/50 unless bat and 1bar is up
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Many Quan's? where are these Quans? Is it based on NWM or online? Because i havent seen that many Quans around at all, not online and in NWM i only saw 2 (didnt see 100% of the streams) and yes they placed top 8 both em of, doesnt make him broken/op. Cant create a tierlist from 1 major tournament..
I do agree that maybe a tweak is in hand, but if you actually take some time and watch a player that know what Quan's weakness is, such as F0xy Grandpa from UK who plays Ketchup alot and you will see that Quan is not all willynilly. A great character but not broken/op. Great zoning and good 50/50. No wakeup/get off me move, no safe 50/50 unless bat and 1bar is up
I was referring to tournaments. Quans mix ups are fantastic. Yes he can be beat when he is knocked on his ass, but he is plus on both bat and ex rune which means it's safe mixup city. Not to mention his mixup is a mixup within a mixup depending on the timing he uses.

I'm not saying Quan has no weaknesses, but he currently looks a cut above the rest. I could use more experience but Dink really opened my eyes the other night.
 
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