What's new

What Variations Ended Up Being Better/Worse Than You Thought They Would Be?

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
You made a whole thread calling Deceptive a gimmick and stating that his variations looked weak. You were calling
for developer fixes to his variations.

And no, you're not sold short at all. With deceptive, you have a free tool that you can set up and use for hella baits, whiff punishing, etc.

I'm sorry that your free, meterless full invisibility might require a little set up. If it were faster for full invis, it would be ridiculous.
No need to be sorry, as this is my opinion, what are you not getting about that?

Although it takes ages to get an invisible state going from a regular invisibly input, its cool and all, it has its use, I like that you can counter zone a single projectile with it, and you can armour a single hitting wake up, and if they recover slowly, you can punish, and I also get that you make people panic with it after F412, I get all that, and I totally understand that you like it, but thats doesn't matter to me, as I think for a whole variation, it isn't enough.

I would be completely sold on it, if both versions of invisibility stayed active on block, considering you are also working against the clock while its active.

I don't want anything in the game buffed or nerfed, everything before hand was just harmless, fun, pre release speculation and forum discussion, nothing more, let it go.

Bottom line is, buff it or not, it doesn't matter to me, I main Sub Zero, not Reptile.
 

Zatoichi

Fabulous Goofball
Deceptive Reptile has a better projectile war game than any of the other variations, because of stealth's properties (no damage taken when hit out of stealth, EX has armor on startup). Also, Deceptive has the absolute best rushdown game of the three due to EX stealth making it practically impossible to tell what Reptile is doing. It's got the weakest damage game, though.
Wait, Reptile takes no damage when he is hit out of stealth??
 

RM slacked

Shinnok trash from Canada.
Being a johnny player in mk 9, I can say I seriously don't like him at all in this game, Then I found Pumped Up Jax and I'm never gonna touch Johnny again.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Ermac in general. MoS is kinda good, but it wont get you far, mystic simply sucks and spectral i dont know. Gimmicky normals, gaps in his strings and in general unsafe normals.

Shinnok was dissapointing as well.

Goro on the other hand... Damn...
 
DEF SHinnok i was soo pumped up to play the elder god and the MAIN VILLIAN OF THE FUCKING GAME with those boney hands in necromancer after skiping my way through the story mode just to be able to play him my dreams got crushed wen i went to the lab with Necromancer : No Overhead starter , specials are mid and no variaty in the strings and hes unblockable is easily avoidable just dash forward and punish shinnok.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Hellfire does less damage in every situation and the only thing it has over Inferno is one slow unblockable. Ninjutsu does even less damage than Hellfire but doesn't allow you to vortex, and all you gain in return is the ability to whif punish and punish from a little further range than normal. It's not a matter of difficulty, Inferno is almost always going to be the best one for most situations. The other two variations are to cover your bases and help out with certain match ups.
Do you even play Scorpion?; Hellfire does as much as damage as Inferno does, and Ninjutsu can vortex as much as Inferno and Hellfire do.

I'm done here.
 

RampaginDragon

Loses to uppercuts
Do you even play Scorpion?; Hellfire does as much as damage as Inferno does, and Ninjutsu can vortex as much as Inferno and Hellfire do.

I'm done here.
In fact I've played Scorpion more than almost everybody. No, Hellfire combos do not do the same amount as Inferno combos. Inferno has far better zoning and mix up options (stringing into a low or overhead minion on block). And yes, Ninjutsu can vortex, but with less damage than Inferno (because Inferno gets a bonus string and special each time a combo is landed), and Hellfire (because Flame Aura dot).

Hellfire is seemingly worthless. I played around 200 Scorpion games using only Hellfire until I realized about 5 days ago that Inferno can do everything Hellfire can do but better. Hellfire has a slow unblockable and a fireball cancel, at the cost of Inferno's 3 zoning tools (including the mix ups they offer), and greater combo damage into vortex (and ending the vortex at a higher frame advantage unless you choose to forgo the Flame Aura ender, at which point you might as well be using Ninjutsu for its range). My favorite thing about Hellfire was AAing people with Flame Aura, since it's fairly fast and has decent aoe, but I've gotten far more consistent at AAing with instant jump kick into TP so even that isn't worth it.

The only argument I could see being made is the ability to ex hellfire after some combos for the bonus damage, but Inferno can get 1 or 2 % away from the damage Hellfire can do after the ex hellfire and still end it in a vortex. So IMO Inferno wins there too.

Edit: Just tested it in training. I tried every viable combo I can think of, even unoptimal ones, and Inferno is getting around 5% more damage every time. This plus all the extra tools Inferno has is starting to make me wonder if you even play Scorpion. What combos are you using with Hellfire? Maybe I have missed them.
 
Last edited:

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
In fact I've played Scorpion more than almost everybody. No, Hellfire combos do not do the same amount as Inferno combos. Inferno has far better zoning and mix up options (stringing into a low or overhead minion on block). And yes, Ninjutsu can vortex, but with less damage than Inferno (because Inferno gets a bonus string and special each time a combo is landed), and Hellfire (because Flame Aura dot).

Hellfire is seemingly worthless. I played around 200 Scorpion games using only Hellfire until I realized about 5 days ago that Inferno can do everything Hellfire can do but better. Hellfire has a slow unblockable and a fireball cancel, at the cost of Inferno's 3 zoning tools (including the mix ups they offer), and greater combo damage into vortex (and ending the vortex at a higher frame advantage unless you choose to forgo the Flame Aura ender, at which point you might as well be using Ninjutsu for its range). My favorite thing about Hellfire was AAing people with Flame Aura, since it's fairly fast and has decent aoe, but I've gotten far more consistent at AAing with instant jump kick into TP so even that isn't worth it.

The only argument I could see being made is the ability to ex hellfire after some combos for the bonus damage, but Inferno can get 1 or 2 % away from the damage Hellfire can do after the ex hellfire and still end it in a vortex. So IMO Inferno wins there too.
Hellfire is just not for you, and i didn't said Ninjutsu can do damage, you said before it can't do vortex, i just corrected you on that. I've been playing Hellfire ever since two days before the official street date.

Hellfire is safer among the others variations because you can turn any scorpion string safer, besides i can do 40% damage with Hellfire just fine, and Flame aura is not a combo ender, is a combo extender, which you can combo from it by doing links, the problem people are having to find damage with hellfire is that it requires execution to land Fbc combos, link strings after sucessfully hit flame aura, and extend damage by normals and help the flame aura cooldown to utilize again in the same combo, before you choose your own ender.

In Inferno you can pull 4 strings repetition in one combo, in Hellfire you can pull 5. Because in this variation scorpion can has a special move that recaptures same as minion grab does, he can do this recapture move twice in the same combo, he can also get one more fbc repetition which are pretty long and annoying, force people to mash and you can choose in quickly in which part you can end your combo by either baiting out options or mixups with lows, overheads, throws etc and i'm not even counting Hellfire the unblockable, that can force people to jump on head on, or just force them to stay mobile, which works in contrast with flame aura.


How can you say that about hellfire when i'm doing 39% meterless without jump ins?

And building a lot of meter in the process


Every character that fights hellfire Scorpion has to constantly worry about flame aura, that special move is annoying, because it has very long active frames on activation and during that time they can't get much near of him, its similar to the Kung Lao Spin threat though that is not a 4f or 6f move, it produces about the same results, and need to keep looking out for the slow unblockable special, which will constanly bring them in range when Scorpion's advancing normals hits better..

As much as you can jump backwards to cancel with teleport, if you get baited to jump backwards with kick your character won't be able to block as he reaches the ground because you can't teleport either if your attack doesn't connect into anything, the game has only 2 to 3 weeks, give time, once people figure it out that you can punish jump attacks much easier than MK9 a lot of people will get blown up by trying to jump in or away, or left and right like a kangaroo.

Inferno has Mixups?, What mixups? as far as i know, the zoning tools inferno has can be scouted and punished accordingly with some practice, and those tools works better from afar than they work up close, Minions have slow startups, and once scorpion os touched they disappear, i'm dying to see how will inferno will deal with someone who is able to deal with the minions, i don't see a mixup happening without taking much risks, if you end up your strings on blocks canceling with minions they will all be a risk.
 

RampaginDragon

Loses to uppercuts
You don't main a variation you main a character.

And I don't jump backwards into kick to AA, I jump forward as they're jumping at me.

As for the combo damge, I didn't know it was possible to combo off of Flame Aura, so the damage gap isn't as large as I thought. But saying you're getting 39% meterless is almost misleading. That's not your punish, that's only if someone fails to block the 25 frame overhead, which is easily fuzzy blocked. Not to mention the combo requires you to link within a 3 frame window. That's 1 20th of a second. I was only able to get this combo about < 50% of my attempts. It's probably because I'm not used to comboing off of Flame Aura, but as good as we all like to think we are, none of us can link a 3 frame window all of the time (unless there's some way to buffer this that I'm unaware of).

Given you can perfectly link within 3 frames without ever dropping it you get 39% off of overheads, 22% was the most I could get out of the low starter (can you get more?), and 36% bnb (can you get more?). Like I said, I doubt anyone is able to link that 100% of the time, but if you could that's the highest damage I could come up with meterless. Another thing to note about that combo is that Fire ball is only +11, which doesn't give you enough frames to do anything other than poke without there being a chance of eating armor, so no continued pressure or low strings after the overhead combo if your opponent knows the data. And any combo that ends with Flame Aura rather than TP is less safe and more prone to getting armored out of afterwards.

Inferno gets 30% overheads, 26% lows, and 36% bnb, and the combos are easy as cake, no chance of dropping them. All combos end in TP (+18) so they are forced to respect the low and can't throw armor out after every vortex. In my opinion, the zoning tools and occasional block string mix up with minions, coupled with what I just mentioned, still yields Inferno as superior in almost every way. Though I don't think Hellfire is nearly as bad now that I know you can combo off of Flame Aura. Honestly even if Hellfire consistently got slightly higher damage from every combo starter, I would still prefer having the added mix up and zoning potential. And yes, the minions after a block string is a risk, but it's not something you should do often, only when you've appropriately trained your opponent.

Watching the videos gave me one idea that I thought might make me want to play Hellfire again, that's 21 into fireball cancel pressure. But unfortunately because of the stamina bar you aren't able to keep the pressure up for long and you aren't even that plus after you cancel your run so it would be pretty easy to deal with.

Before I didn't think Hellfire was even viable because of Inferno, but now I could see it being played in a couple of situations, overall I still don't see a real reason to consistently use it over Inferno though.
 
Last edited:

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
You don't main a variation you main a character.

And I don't jump backwards into kick to AA, I jump forward as they're jumping at me.
I didn't said i main hellfire, i said i've been playing hellfire more than the others, i main Scorpion, you said Hellfire is worthless, i've been using that variation mostly and discussing with notable Scorpion players a @Slips and @MITDJT, and not of the Scorpion mains among the kouncil has this same opinion you have.

Jumping forward is even worse than jumping backwards
The second you fall into a bait jump you're open to punish because your character will not be able to block during the landing, you're yet to see this i know.

As for the combo damge, I didn't know it was possible to combo off of Flame Aura, so the damage gap isn't as large as I thought. But saying you're getting 39% meterless is almost misleading. That's not your punish, that's only if someone fails to block the 25 frame overhead, which is easily fuzzy blocked. Not to mention the combo requires you to link within a 3 frame window. That's 1 20th of a second. I was only able to get this combo about < 50% of my attempts. It's probably because I'm not used to comboing off of Flame Aura, but as good as we all like to think we are, none of us can link a 3 frame window all of the time (unless there's some way to buffer this that I'm unaware of).
1 frame links in Street fighter without plinking:

what do you think 3 frames are to me? And i played Ibuki in street fighter which is constantly hitting combos with 1 frame links to get decent damage during real matches.

Hellfire do about the same damage inferno do meterless even without the overhead, the overhead might not be the combo starter, then your saying vortex and mixups are pointless. Because that is the only overhead Scorpion has to start a combo for the mix up game, besides you can still connect from a jump in. and you have the F2 which is a knockdown that puts things in scorpion favor.

I can get 30% easier with flame aura starter, B3, or 214, i did explored my options, it seems you have not, the only less damaging starter scorpion has is B2, which actually xcales damage.

Given you can perfectly link within 3 frames without ever dropping it you get 39% off of overheads, 22% was the most I could get out of the low starter (can you get more?), and 36% bnb (can you get more?). Like I said, I doubt anyone is able to link that 100% of the time, but if you could that's the highest damage I could come up with meterless. Another thing to note about that combo is that Fire ball is only +11, which doesn't give you enough frames to do anything other than poke without there being a chance of eating armor, so no continued pressure or low strings after the overhead combo if your opponent knows the data. And any combo that ends with Flame Aura rather than TP is less safe and more prone to getting armored out of afterwards.
It seems you still have to learn about smart play, i said on my previous post, those links encourage mashing, fireball being +11 is exactly the point i made on my previous post when i said:

he can also get one more fbc repetition which are pretty long and annoying, force people to mash and you can choose in quickly in which part you can end your combo by either baiting out options or mixups with lows, overheads, throws etc
This includes people mashing armor out hoping i can drop my combo, which is exactly what a scorpion in hellfire variation willl expect you to do.
Hellfire favor smart play over guessing, the tools given to hellfire helps you to play smarter, safer and force your opponent to take more risks.

As Slips said before, its a low Riks/High Reward variation

Inferno gets 30% overheads, 26% lows, and 36% bnb, and the combos are easy as cake, no chance of dropping them. All combos end in TP (+18) so they are forced to respect the low and can't throw armor out after every vortex. In my opinion, the zoning tools and occasional block string mix up with minions, coupled with what I just mentioned, still yields Inferno as superior in almost every way. Though I don't think Hellfire is nearly as bad now that I know you can combo off of Flame Aura. Honestly even if Hellfire consistently got slightly higher damage from every combo starter, I would still prefer having the added mix up and zoning potential. And yes, the minions after a block string is a risk, but it's not something you should do often, only when you've appropriately trained your opponent.
You said Overhead is not a combo starter or punish, yet you count it here, ending combos with teleport doesn't mean they can't throw armor out, why do you think MITDJT lost to sonic fox at fatal 8? Why do you think you can duck thows even when they're being performed from blockstrings?


What is a blockstring? canceling your strings with minions its not a blockstring, there is no attack with cancel advantage of 26 frames and attacks with a blockstun so big that makes canceling into minions a blockstring, if that was so, canceling with Hellfire would've have been a runetrap just as quan chi was in MK9. The second they see the minion animation they will armor out, hit scorpion before any of he minions came out, 214 string on block is not safe is -14 which can be reversal punished by a lot of fast specials, or advancing normals with much less startup.

Watching the videos gave me one idea that I thought might make me want to play Hellfire again, that's 21 into fireball cancel pressure. But unfortunately because of the stamina bar you aren't able to keep the pressure up for long and you aren't even that plus after you cancel your run so it would be pretty easy to deal with.

Before I didn't think Hellfire was even viable because of Inferno, but now I could see it being played in a couple of situations, overall I still don't see a real reason to consistently use it over Inferno though.
What you need to do is not rush into conclusions, 21 fbc is not a blockstring, and can be interrupted, clearly that is not the way it was intended to be done, 214~fbc in other had is a true blockstring which can't be poked out off, we've been working into developing this variation further, once we get more data we will share, and the stamina is an important aspect of the game, it wasn't meant to endlessly pressure your opponent, that is the draw back, when you cancel your blockstring with FBC you can mix between low, overhead, throw, back dash or even jump to throw off timing, and they have to worry about all these options.

Hellfire is pretty damn consistent, Ask any Scorpion player who has been playing it for a while.
@Scoot Magee @JTB123 @vegeta