General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

Youphemism said:

Jesus fucking christ! This is one matchup and just theorizing and you've shown off Shinnok's fundamental gameplan failures. This character needs buffs man lol.

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honestly if they made f22 -4 and hellsparks -8, thats all we would need

I don't understand something in his frame data. It says his Enhanced Hell Sparks is +22 on block, but you can't (to my knowledge) Enhance the second or last Hell Spark on block, only on hit. And I'm not talking about his Hell Blast special, I am looking right under Hell Sparks where it says R2.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

Wemfs said:

I don't understand something in his frame data. It says his Enhanced Hell Sparks is +22 on block, but you can't (to my knowledge) Enhance the second or last Hell Spark on block, only on hit. And I'm not talking about his Hell Blast special, I am looking right under Hell Sparks where it says R2.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

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db1 in necromancer also has frame data for on block. the frame data in this game bugs the hell out of me.

regulas said:

I find you main goal with him is to bait people into hellsparks. Since it can be hitconfirmed easily into combo's you never risk wasting meter. Shin is really a hardcore punish character in general with his combination of range with his super unsafe specials. Boneshaper is the only one that can be more aggressive easily due to his ranged normal strings for footsies pressure and his b3 having a full string.

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Hmm I kinda like this theory. I'm usually a passive player so this may work to my advantage but what does shinnok do when hes pressure? can't be much of punish character if don't have means of stooping this right?

keo-bas said:

Hmm I kinda like this theory. I'm usually a passive player so this may work to my advantage but what does shinnok do when hes pressure? can't be much of punish character if don't have means of stooping this right?

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well when people get close to me i just try to poke out with d4 and backdash since its mad plus and pushes back super far on hit, then just go back to being super lame.

keo-bas said:

Hmm I kinda like this theory. I'm usually a passive player so this may work to my advantage but what does shinnok do when hes pressure? can't be much of punish character if don't have means of stooping this right?

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b3 or other pokes would be my escape cards, often they open themselves up to hellpsarks trying to get back in. Note that on hit will combo unlike most poke moves so if you b3~db2 thats a true combo. Boneshaper has it way easier because his b3 has a full string that it connects with and if you stop after the third hit it's safe on block.

Shinnok corner 59% combo:

So far I think he's okay. He bullies super hard right now because most people don't know the match-ups. He has a good footsie game with B3, D2, F2, sparks, D4 and even D3. If you're in Necromancer (imo his best overall variation, besides the potential MU specific imposter) he has the flick and db1 unblockable as well which make for some incredibly good okizeme.

Yes he is reliant on meter, but look at how he is balanced: He builds meter exceptionally well with hell sparks hitting on block 3x (incredible meter building for one special, that also SPACES the opponent). Factor in that there is 0 risk in spending meter because low spark is meter burn hit-confirmed rather than something like say a Takeda Ex Teleport, and the fact that becuase low spark is essential to his game he converts damage off of literally anything he touches you with.

Thinking he will be mid-high tier, not top as it stand unless I am heavily overestimating his gaps. He excels at controlling space and whiff punishing, he is not supposed to be a rushdown or mix-up oriented character. Due to this throwing and spacing traps are essential to opening up your opponent, anyone who is still eating raw B3's is simply inexperienced and does not accurately represent the MU.

I will be recording a video soon, just been hella busy with exams. Ideally I would like voice commentary to go in depth but I'm missing my headset atm (broke) so until I grab a new one simple text comments may have to suffice.

EDIT: ATM i feel bone shaper is utterly inferior to both of the other variations, unless i'm missing something extreme it removes 2-3 of his best tools and gives him a new string and special which he does not need anyways. Why does a low mb launcher matter when all he has is lows is another mb combo launcher? It doesn't do significantly more damage (as of yet) to justify its usage. It's nice at absolute full screen where it is very safe on block and you can exploit its ridiculous range but aside from that.... :\

xSMoKEx said:

So far I think he's okay. He bullies super hard right now because most people don't know the match-ups. He has a good footsie game with B3, D2, F2, sparks, D4 and even D3. If you're in Necromancer (imo his best overall variation, besides the potential MU specific imposter) he has the flick and db1 unblockable as well which make for some incredibly good okizeme.

Yes he is reliant on meter, but look at how he is balanced: He builds meter exceptionally well with hell sparks hitting on block 3x (incredible meter building for one special, that also SPACES the opponent). Factor in that there is 0 risk in spending meter because low spark is meter burn hit-confirmed rather than something like say a Takeda Ex Teleport, and the fact that becuase low spark is essential to his game he converts damage off of literally anything he touches you with.

Thinking he will be mid-high tier, not top as it stand unless I am heavily overestimating his gaps. He excels at controlling space and whiff punishing, he is not supposed to be a rushdown or mix-up oriented character. Due to this throwing and spacing traps are essential to opening up your opponent, anyone who is still eating raw B3's is simply inexperienced and does not accurately represent the MU.

I will be recording a video soon, just been hella busy with exams. Ideally I would like voice commentary to go in depth but I'm missing my headset atm (broke) so until I grab a new one simple text comments may have to suffice.

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I can vouch for the bullying, as I have been the target

xSMoKEx said:

EDIT: ATM i feel bone shaper is utterly inferior to both of the other variations, unless i'm missing something extreme it removes 2-3 of his best tools and gives him a new string and special which he does not need anyways. Why does a low mb launcher matter when all he has is lows is another mb combo launcher? It doesn't do significantly more damage (as of yet) to justify its usage. It's nice at absolute full screen where it is very safe on block and you can exploit its ridiculous range but aside from that.... :\

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Necro is better in the short term but Bone is better in the long run. For now people don't know how to deal with flick well enough (it's quite dodgeable as with all the projectiles) which makes it easy to abuse, and in general I find necromancer does well especially for that whole lack of match-up knowledge

Boneshaper gets the best overall pressure however because he can actually play it safe reliably especially since his main sets of strings are slow enough to hitconfirm into special but safe on block if not. The strings he gets include both incredible range and better mix-up potential, notably a 6 frame low actually being a string that you can hitconfrim into a combo. He still gets an unblockable hit and he gets the near full range punish tool in that df2. The projectile may not be as good as that flick overall but it is faster (try playing against AI on hard lol boneshaper will projectile you to death insta punishing any movement).

Definitely a much harder learn but wheres necro enemies will eventually learn to fight against you, with boneshaper you have much more of a well rounded punish heavy footsies game that's much hard to counter.

regulas said:

Necro is better in the short term but Bone is better in the long run. For now people don't know how to deal with flick well enough (it's quite dodgeable as with all the projectiles) which makes it easy to abuse, and in general I find necromancer does well especially for that whole lack of match-up knowledge

Boneshaper gets the best overall pressure however because he can actually play it safe reliably especially since his main sets of strings are slow enough to hitconfirm into special but safe on block if not. The strings he gets include both incredible range and better mix-up potential, notably a 6 frame low actually being a string that you can hitconfrim into a combo. He still gets an unblockable hit and he gets the near full range punish tool in that df2. The projectile may not be as good as that flick overall but it is faster (try playing against AI on hard lol boneshaper will projectile you to death insta punishing any movement).

Definitely a much harder learn but wheres necro enemies will eventually learn to fight against you, with boneshaper you have much more of a well rounded punish heavy footsies game that's much hard to counter.

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There is a lot to refute / clarify here.

Flick, I agree, is not a zoning tool to just be thrown out. It's main usage is as a safe okizeme tool that should be used in unison with DB1 and DB2 from a distance.

Honestly, either way you look at it his pressure is ass, it's not like he gains some 50/50 or frame trap from picking bone shaper, in fact he actually loses his only viable one lol. The argument of making B3 hitconfirmable is definitely valid reason for choosing this variation though, I will have to look further into this strings properties. Also, F2 in imposter/necro is much more appealing than bone shaper, which loses quite a bit of range. A well spaced and executed F2~low sparks covers 2/3 of the screen and makes all fireballs connect on hit. Anywhere else you should look to kara->b3 or d4~sparks to re-space.

I will definitely touch upon this in greater detail later on, these are just some quick points.

xSMoKEx said:

There is a lot to refute / clarify here.

Flick, I agree, is not a zoning tool to just be thrown out. It's main usage is as a safe okizeme tool that should be used in unison with DB1 and DB2 from a distance.

Honestly, either way you look at it his pressure is ass, it's not like he gains some 50/50 or frame trap from picking bone shaper, in fact he actually loses his only viable one lol. The argument of making B3 hitconfirmable is definitely valid reason for choosing this variation though, I will have to look further into this strings properties. Also, F2 in imposter/necro is much more appealing than bone shaper, which loses quite a bit of range. A well spaced and executed F2~low sparks covers 2/3 of the screen and makes all fireballs connect on hit. Anywhere else you should look to kara->b3 or d4~sparks to re-space.

I will definitely touch upon this in greater detail later on, these are just some quick points.

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The only thing boneshaper even needs: b3,1,d2 6 frame safe string. Even ignoring that its slow enough to hitconfirm, it's a poke speed string. There's only a couple rushdown characters like cassie that can match that speed (with a high) so you can basically just mindlessly throw this out any time you block anything instantly breaking any pressure on you, note that string reaches fullscreen (with the carry forward steps in it). All the F/B3 strings have long range second and third hits. His F2 is (one hit) safe on block this version and more for combo finisher, since his df2 is good fast punisher anyway.

The point of boneshaper is you use the range on your safe strings to apply block pressure aiming for him to screw-up into a punish. Any time he does attack you you convert that into a fast string reversal. The goal with footsies isn't to mix-up just to make him screw up.

regulas said:

The only thing boneshaper even needs: b3,1,d2 6 frame safe string. Even ignoring that its slow enough to hitconfirm, it's a poke speed string. There's only a couple rushdown characters like cassie that can match that speed (with a high) so you can basically just mindlessly throw this out any time you block anything instantly breaking any pressure on you, note that string reaches fullscreen (with the carry forward steps in it). All the F/B3 strings have long range second and third hits. His F2 is (one hit) safe on block this version and more for combo finisher, since his df2 is good fast punisher anyway.

The point of boneshaper is you use the range on your safe strings to apply block pressure aiming for him to screw-up into a punish. Any time he does attack you you convert that into a fast string reversal. The goal with footsies isn't to mix-up just to make him screw up.

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Just hit the lab again, B31 is definitely a very good normal that I had overlooked. Definitely makes this worth looking into knowint that. Previously i had only really looked at the spafe or F22 but this is a much better replacement for the loss of his original F22 in necro for sure.

I would use necro but I just can't get over the look of his arms

Something i've been thinking about, but i'm not at home so I can't test:

What can you get off a b3 on hit if you don't combo? The biggest issue i see for non shaper shinnoks is that b3 is a commitment in most matchups. You can't hit confirm the sparks, you need to buffer the whole thing, so if they block it they usually get a free punish. How + is b3 on hit if you don't cancel into sparks, and can you get a teleport mixup from it?

I just wanna say the MK community is really active when it comes to sharing tech. Keep it up guys! Anyways, I was fighting Sub-Zero (Grandmaster) and I just wanted to play Bone Shaper Shinnok for the hell of it. df2 from Shinnok was able to counter a Sub-Zero using ice clones when properly spaced (without meter). Just wanted to throw this out there.

Also @ Smoke,
Very informative posts. Please bump this thread with more knowledge bruh!

xSMoKEx said:

Yes he is reliant on meter, but look at how he is balanced: He builds meter exceptionally well with hell sparks hitting on block 3x (incredible meter building for one special, that also SPACES the opponent). Factor in that there is 0 risk in spending meter because low spark is meter burn hit-confirmed rather than something like say a Takeda Ex Teleport, and the fact that becuase low spark is essential to his game he converts damage off of literally anything he touches you with.\

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I dont understand, alot of you seem to think Hell Sparks is a great move? alot of times, the last spark, dosent even hit on block, and it can be punished realy easy, even if all sparks hit on block, some of the cast can punish it. I dont think Hell Sparks is a great move at all, to spam all day, maybe for now, but this move will be ass, if the people figure Shinnok out

Malec said:

I dont understand, alot of you seem to think Hell Sparks is a great move? alot of times, the last spark, dosent even hit on block, and it can be punished realy easy, even if all sparks hit on block, some of the cast can punish it. I dont think Hell Sparks is a great move at all, to spam all day, maybe for now, but this move will be ass, if the people figure Shinnok out

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because anti air hellsparks are pretty dope. i dont think its a great move to necessarily spam, however it does cover a lot of space. its not nearly as good as i originally thought but its still a pretty useful move

AVN PTH jonnitti said:

because anti air hellsparks are pretty dope. i dont think its a great move to necessarily spam, however it does cover a lot of space. its not nearly as good as i originally thought but its still a pretty useful move

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Can corroborate, jump into hellsparks constantly.

Malec said:

I dont understand, alot of you seem to think Hell Sparks is a great move? alot of times, the last spark, dosent even hit on block, and it can be punished realy easy, even if all sparks hit on block, some of the cast can punish it. I dont think Hell Sparks is a great move at all, to spam all day, maybe for now, but this move will be ass, if the people figure Shinnok out

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This is mostly true. D4~hellspark will ensure all sparks will hit, so in matchups where it's safe that's one of the better tools to use. 4~sparks and b3~sparks(spaced right) will also ensure all 3 sparks for matchups where it matters. Further in matchups where he can be punished it might be possible to perfectly space them so just the edge of the 3rd spark hits, and then be safe, but honestly that's risky as hell. The upside is i've yet to see someone who can really full combo punish the sparks on block. They tend to get stuff like slide or fist. Granted this is still BAD(and i seriously think he'd be fine if 3rd spark was safe on block given it can whiff so badly), but it's not completely awful?

In other news, more teleport stuff, sorta:

nj4 when done VERY low to the ground will jail into b3 on block, and then space them perfectly for all 3 sparks to hit. This is some of the best news so far as it means that teleport mixups can do last second nj4, b3~db2 for a VERY fast overhead/low mixup, and if they block they'll be pushed into all sparks. If the low hits you get a combo with meter. If the overhead hits it's a hard knockdown and you get a mixup from there.

im in bed right now but i ran across ultradavid's option select video. shinnok does come up in here briefly saying that you can do string into bf1+2+3 and on hit you get string xx ex shoulder and on block you get string xx flick. interesting. i wonder if he has something like kano does in first part where nothing comes out on block and something comes out on hit.

AVN PTH jonnitti said:

im in bed right now but i ran across ultradavid's option select video. shinnok does come up in here briefly saying that you can do string into bf1+2+3 and on hit you get string xx ex shoulder and on block you get string xx flick. interesting. i wonder if he has something like kano does in first part where nothing comes out on block and something comes out on hit.

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ugh I really don't like this option select shit. are they going to patch it?

what is it exactly that shinnock bring to the table?

I love the whole character but I don't know what strengths I should be playing too

specifically necromancer

HoneyBadgerBJJ said:

what is it exactly that shinnock bring to the table?

I love the whole character but I don't know what strengths I should be playing too

specifically necromancer

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Space control mostly. You want them to come to you, and then punish them for it with good footsies and specials. Ideally...sorta. Necro I haven't messed with much.

DownfouralitY said:

ugh I really don't like this option select shit. are they going to patch it?

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idk. the thing is in order to fix option selects they have the change the way the game reads inputs.